whence & thither

[MrGongGong]

I
To the extent that the total figure on the four times p.a. PRS statements covers the cost of a few gin and tonics, you could say that (although I couldn't possibly comment!). Actually, most definitely not, since most composers, irrespective of their income levels from composition and/or other sources and regardless of the amounts of their private wealth (if any) don't so much "sit about musing" as the - er - WORK!

Come off it mr H
I'm sure I saw Colin Matthews getting out of his Ferrari the other day?
And Richard Barrett always travels by private jet.

Must go though, I have a beard to stroke whilst contemplating hexatonic scales

:laugh:

[visualnickmos]

...It is kinda difficult earning money if you don't have a job/career so maybe you might explain how one, whether more or less educated, can possibly earn money without one?

Exactly - I don't know why some folk have difficulty with the concept. Perfect logic, I'd say.

[visualnickmos]

It wasn't yours to whch I referred!

It was mine - and I missed out a word! Should have gone to uni!

[ahinton]

Well, I don't think anyone here has challenged the point in your first sentence so why raise it?

Why not? Making points does not depend upon challenging those which have previously been made by others, after all!

Certainly getting a job/career may not be the be all and end all of everything but I would suggest that is is most young people's priority whether one ends up at university or not!

Well, I don't think anyone here has challenged this point, so why raise it?(!)...

Surely the first thing we learn is that, unless we are to be solely reliant on others' money, we must eat, drink, clothe and house ourselves before we have even a cat-in-hell's chance of learning and doing anything else in life whether we study at university or not?

Most of us are reliant on other people's money in one way or another; those in receipt of state benefits (including the vast numbers of those on state retirement benefit) rely on taxpayers who fund them, those who are employed rely on their employers' incomes, turnovers and profitability in obtaining their salaries, those in business on their own account rely on their clients' / customers' money to keep going, &c.

That is the point, P. G. Tipps! (or at least a response you yours, such as it is).

[ahinton]

It was mine - and I missed out a word! Should have gone to uni!

Well, I wasn't going to identify you - and attending university is no guarantee not only of future employment but also of freedom from the commission of grammatical errors, typos et al...(!)

[ahinton]

Come off it mr H
I'm sure I saw Colin Matthews getting out of his Ferrari the other day?

How can you be sure that it was his?

And Richard Barrett always travels by private jet.

"Always"? Even when travelling from one part of Berlin to another? In any case, on the occasions (if any) when he does travel by this means, how do you know whose jet it is?

Must go though, I have a beard to stroke whilst contemplating hexatonic scales

But surely that's a discriminatory statement unworthy of you, Mr Tam-tam-tam-tam?! Only composers displaying designer stubble or more are capable of such contemplation? Tell that to Judiths Bingham and Weir, or to Thea, or...! As to hexatonic, I prefer gin and tonic...

[MrGongGong]

In the UK we have this ridiculous approach where young people are made to feel that somehow they have to decide what they want to do with the rest of their lives as earlier and earlier ages.
Some folks DO want to be doctors at age 13, but many people are actively prevented from studying subjects they are passionate about because there isn't seen to be an obvious "career" path.

Most people who study music at University don't go on to be professional musicians or academics which doesn't in any way mean it's a "waste".
Conflating education with training has been to the detriment of us all IMV

[ahinton]

In the UK we have this ridiculous approach where young people are made to feel that somehow they have to decide what they want to do with the rest of their lives as earlier and earlier ages.
Some folks DO want to be doctors at age 13, but many people are actively prevented from studying subjects they are passionate about because there isn't seen to be an obvious "career" path.

I agree and I believe that such a stance is all the more puzzling given that the days of "jobs for life" are long gone and some people have all manner of career changes throughout their professional lives.

Most people who study music at University don't go on to be professional musicians or academics which doesn't in any way mean it's a "waste".

Whilst I agree with that last bit I'm not so sure about the "most"; "some", perhaps, but surely not "most"? In so saying, however, I am not seeking to undermine the thrust of your point here.

Conflating education with training has been to the detriment of us all IMV

Well, if by "education" you mean something more general and by "training" you mean something more specific to a particular area of employment, then yes indeed, although I'm not so sure that the two are quite as separate in all cases as you might appear to suggest.

[P. G. Tipps]

Most of us are reliant on other people's money in one way or another; those in receipt of state benefits (including the vast numbers of those on state retirement benefit) rely on taxpayers who fund them, those who are employed rely on their employers' incomes, turnovers and profitability in obtaining their salaries, those in business on their own account rely on their clients' / customers' money to keep going, &c.

That is the point, P. G. Tipps! (or at least a response you yours, such as it is).

Whatever your point, it does display some serious misunderstanding of the pay, tax and NI system.

I get my State Pension because I paid the full NI contributions when I was in work. I get my company pension(s) because I offered my admittedly tiny brain and labour to the service of the companies who employed me during my working-life. Nothing was 'given' to me, I had to b****y well earn it, Mr Hinton! The same is true of those who are self-employed and offer their labour and brains to others in exchange for money to live and hopefully prosper.

In all these cases it's not others' money it's that of those who have earned it and which is now rightfully in their bank and no longer in the others.

I don't know about you but, ever since childhood, nobody has ever given me money for nothing!

[MrGongGong]

I hope you aren't under the delusion PG that the money you paid in NI is somehow saved up in an account for you?

It's only sustainable if people keep working and paying money in tax (which is what NI is)

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz tedious nonsense this sordid business of coin

[ahinton]

Whatever your point, it does display some serious misunderstanding of the pay, tax and NI system.

I get my State Pension because I paid the full NI contributions when I was in work. I get my company pension(s) because I offered my admittedly tiny brain and labour to the service of the companies who employed me during my working-life. Nothing was 'given' to me, I had to b****y well earn it, Mr Hinton! The same is true of those who are self-employed and offer their labour and brains to others in exchange for money to live and hopefully prosper.

In all these cases it's not others' money it's that of those who have earned it and which is now rightfully in their bank and no longer in the others.

The "serious misunderstanding" is yours, I'm afraid. The point that you miss here is that everyone in receipt of income from state benefits of all kinds and from employment or business profits is dependent upon other people's money for those sources of income; being so does not means that those other than state benefits are not "earned" but, without "other people's money", salaries, bonuses and the like wouldn't get paid and businesses would not generate income. It is only bacause people pay their money in exchange for services rendered by employees or self-employed working people that such employed and self-employed people receive money for their work; they are therefore dependent upon "other people's money" and those people's willingness to pay it, which doesn't mean that they don't "earn" what they receive. That said, it is also important to note that not all work done, especially by the self-employed, is necessarily paid for and not all that is paid for is sufficiently well paid for.

I mentioned state benefits including retirement benefit which is not a "pension" as such but a benefit like all other state benefits; a true "pension" is an investment vehicle that enables contributors to save, usually (but not always) from his/her earnings/profits. The fact that DWP happens to deem you to be entitled to state retirement benefit because the relevant taxes had been deducted from your employed income merely demonstrates that you thereby qualify to do so, which is by no means the same as saying that this benefit is actually dependent upon, or even directly related to, those taxes; all state benefits, including retirement benefit, are paid out of relevant taxes levied on other people's incomes that the state receives only very shortly before it makes each such benefit payment.

I don't know about you but, ever since childhood, nobody has ever given me money for nothing!

I have no obvious reason to doubt that, but it makes no difference to the fact that you're as dependent upon other people's money (and those people's willingness to hand it over) as are the rest of us!

[ahinton]

I hope you aren't under the delusion PG that the money you paid in NI is somehow saved up in an account for you?

He does appear to be but perhaps my post above might give him pause (and cause) to reflect on that. The NI part of the money that he paid in taxes on his salary was paid out almost immediately upon receipt by the state to those entitled to receive benefits at the time. That is indeed the diametric difference between state retirement benefits (which are entirely unrelated to saving) and pensions (which are entirely dependent upon it).

It's only sustainable if people keep working and paying money in tax (which is what NI is)

Yes, on both counts; effectively, it's little better than or different to a government sponsored Ponzi scheme, but it's surprising - if not dismaying - how many people seem unwilling to and/or unable to appreciate that salient fact. The greatest problem with it in principle is that, at the worst times economically in which unemployment statistics rise, more people than ever find themselves dependent upon ever greater sums in state benefits and yet, because of that very same situation, the tax revenues rquired to pay them decrease.

[MrGongGong]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10703506_10100936887941219_1761672122275942209_n.jpg?oh=b2ee73b59ce2dfece4674c999bc92852&oe=54C5BE85&__gda__=1421335264_5d07f25deb90713d7e2dde446b3130bb

Might come as a bit of a surprise to some ?

[ahinton]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.n...2dde446b3130bb

Might come as a bit of a surprise to some ?

Possibly, but then the sources of data of the left side being mere selective polls (and of undisclosed numbers of polled, at that), its reliability is inevitably questionable; unless every British citizen were to be asked for his/her opinions on these issues and could be guaranteed to provide truthful answers in each case, the comparisons between what they're claimed to think and the "reality" are of little practical value (and I use inverted commas for "reality" here because, although the figures on the right side ought to be representative of the truth, the whole thuth and nothing but the truth, I'm not entirely convinced that this is the case, actually). All that can almost certainly be concluded from this is that "what Britons think" about certain issues and the reality diverge, sometimes perhaps quite widely.

[P. G. Tipps]

The "serious misunderstand is yours, I'm afraid. The point that you miss here is that everyone in receipt of income from state benefits of all kinds and from employment or business profits is dependent upon other people's money for those sources of income; being so does not means that those other than state benefits are not "earned" but, without "other people's money", salaries, bonuses and the like wouldn't get paid and businesses would not generate income. It is only bacause people pay their money in exchange for services rendered by employees or self-employed working people that such employed and self-employed people receive money for their work; they are therefore dependent upon "other people's money" and those people's willingness to pay it, which doesn't mean that they don't "earn" what they receive. That said, it is also important to note that not all work done, especially by the self-employed, is necessarily paid for and not all that is paid for is sufficiently well paid for.

I mentioned state benefits including retirement benefit which is not a "pension" as such but a benefit like all other state benefits; a true "pension" is an investment vehicle that enables contributors to save, usually (but not always) from his/her earnings/profits. The fact that DWP happens to deem you to be entitled to state retirement benefit because the relevant taxes had been deducted from your employed income merely demonstrates that you thereby qualify to do so, which is by no means the same as saying that this benefit is actually dependent upon, or even directly related to, those taxes; all state benefits, including retirement benefit, are paid out of relevant taxes levied on other people's incomes that the state receives only very shortly before it makes each such benefit payment.


I have no obvious reason to doubt that, but it makes no difference to the fact that you're as dependent upon other people's money (and those people's willingness to hand it over) as are the rest of us!

'Money' only replaces a goods/services bartering system. When I get my State Pension (official title) after paying my NI contributions all my life it is not a kindly gift by the State but an entitlement. The fact that it is paid out of other peoples' taxes is neither here nor there as it is not 'their' money or the 'State's' money, it's well and truly 'mine'!

It is not dependent on anyone else's 'willingness'. If I don't get my money, I don't offer my services to others and pay my contributions to the State.

It is a curious notion that money is only something that comes from 'other people' as if 'they', including the State, didn't get some of 'ours' as well!