Fake Dr dies

[ahinton]

No, he said that scotty didn't exist.

Scotty said that scotty didn't exist? Mon Dieu!

[visualnickmos]

Maybe my point is that sometimes, just sometimes, miracles do happen. It seems to me a little bit churlish to deny that, in the end, Dr Paisley saw and walked straight into the light of progress and reconciliation, and instead prefer to dwell on his long and destructive period in the darkness?

Do you actually believe that everything is now sweetness and light in NI?

Are there no sectarian divisions in NI on any levels?

Do you believe there are no populated areas in NI where catholics and protestants live undivided based on religious/national allegiance?

What do you make of the so-called real IRA?

You clearly feel that IP was some sort of peacemaker... correct me if I'm wrong.

[P. G. Tipps]

Do you actually believe that everything is now sweetness and light in NI?

Are there no sectarian divisions in NI on any levels?

Do you believe there are no populated areas in NI where catholics and protestants live undivided based on religious/national allegiance?

What do you make of the so-called real IRA?

What strange questions. I no more believe everything is now sweetness and light in N.I. any more than in post-apartheid S. Africa or post-communist Russia. Peace (however imperfect) doesn't mean Problem-free but it's certainly preferable to conflict and war?

You clearly feel that IP was some sort of peacemaker... correct me if I'm wrong.

Well he certainly came to the peace-table in the end and it has little to do with my 'feeling'. It is all there in the history books. Maybe you similarly 'feel' that Nelson Mandela never progressed from violence to the peace-table?

[amateur51]

Scotty said that scotty didn't exist? Mon Dieu!

Exactly! Cheers, jean!

[amateur51]

Well he certainly came to the peace-table in the end and it has little to do with my 'feeling'. It is all there in the history books. Maybe you similarly 'feel' that Nelson Mandela never progressed from violence to the peace-table?

What a woeful comparison.

Paisley advanced towards the peace table only when he realised that his health was failing and that he needed to make an accommodation with history if his 'legacy' was to guarantee his memory. Doubtless that other politician obsessed with his legacy, Tony Blair, was on hand to facilitate this and to offer advice & support.

Paisley's 'Save Ulster From Sodomy' legacy lingers on of course as Northern Ireland ties itself in knots over various aspects of legislation to do with equality for people of the LGBTQ communities. It is remarkable to watch the UK Government seeking to impose financial restrictions on Commonwealth countries that that do not embrace equality legislation for their LGBTQ communities, while it allows Northern Ireland to linger in the backwaters of the 1980s, with Ian Paisley Jnr holding the baton once held by his father.

[ahinton]

Quote Originally Posted by ahinton View Post
Scotty said that scotty didn't exist? Mon Dieu!
Exactly! Cheers, jean!

I'm now more confused than ever. No change there, then! If scotty said that he himself didn't exist and if he was right about that, I can only ask how he managed to say it? Ah, well - never mind about that! Paisley is in scotty's Scotland (and mine), whether or not it becomes "independent" next week. Not that this fact helps to clarify anything, methinks...

[ahinton]

What a woeful comparison.

Paisley advanced towards the peace table only when he realised that his health was failing and that he needed to make an accommodation with history if his 'legacy' was to guarantee his memory. Doubtless that other politician obsessed with his legacy, Tony Blair, was on hand to facilitate this and to offer advice & support.

Paisley's 'Save Ulster From Sodomy' legacy lingers on of course as Northern Ireland ties itself in knots over various aspects of legislation to do with equality for people of the LGBTQ communities. It is remarkable to watch the UK Government seeking to impose financial restrictions on Commonwealth countries that that do not embrace equality legislation for their LGBTQ communities, while it allows Northern Ireland to linger in the backwaters of the 1980s, with Ian Paisley Jnr holding the baton once held by his father.

Indeed - excellent points here!

[P. G. Tipps]

What a woeful comparison.

Paisley advanced towards the peace table only when he realised that his health was failing and that he needed to make an accommodation with history if his 'legacy' was to guarantee his memory. Doubtless that other politician obsessed with his legacy, Tony Blair, was on hand to facilitate this and to offer advice & support.

Well, I humbly suggest it is far from being a 'woeful comparison'. Your reason for branding it as such is pure subjective conjecture.

Of course, as I've said before, no comparison is perfect. There will always be differences though in a good comparison these do not affect the essental point being made.

Mandela went from freedom fighter/terrorist to eventual peace terms with his sworn enemies and finally leader of S. Africa.

Paisley went from ranting bigot/flirting with terrorist paramilitaries to eventual peace terms with his sworn enemies and finally becoming leader of N. Ireland.

The change in attitude/policy of both was crucial to the advancement of peace in both cases.

The same has to be said of those on the other side(s) as well and I would imagine that the huge majority of objective and fair-minded folk will easily concur with what they see here as pretty damn obvious!

Paisley's 'Save Ulster From Sodomy' legacy lingers on of course as Northern Ireland ties itself in knots over various aspects of legislation to do with equality for people of the LGBTQ communities. It is remarkable to watch the UK Government seeking to impose financial restrictions on Commonwealth countries that that do not embrace equality legislation for their LGBTQ communities, while it allows Northern Ireland to linger in the backwaters of the 1980s, with Ian Paisley Jnr holding the baton once held by his father.

You are back to your Great Obsession again. I assume when you talk about 'rights' you are referring to so-called 'equal marriage'?

If so, the European Court of Human Rights does not agree with you ...

http://www.breitbart.com/BreitbartLondon/2014/07/25/European-Human-Rights-Court-Says-No-Right-to-Same-Sex-Marriage

By all means hold any opinions you wish but please try to understand that these do not necessarily bear any relation to fact.

Furthermore,. Mr Ian Paisley Jnr is perfectly entitled to his own opinions in a democratic society even if they upset you greatly and especially as, unlike you, he actually lives in N.I.!

[jean]

That does sound like scotty, I agree.

[ahinton]

Well, I humbly suggest it is far from being a 'woeful comparison'. Your reason for branding it as such is pure subjective conjecture.

Of course, as I've said before, no comparison is perfect. There will always be differences though in a good comparison these do not affect the essental point being made.

"Comparisons are odious", as the well-worn phrase has it; few are quite as much so, however, as that which you seek to make between Paisley and Mandela.

[ahinton]

That does sound like scotty, I agree.

I have to agree as well but I remain unconvinced that the Tippster and the Scottster are duobus unus on the grouds of this latest LGBT reference alone...

[MrGongGong]

"Comparisons are odious", as the well-worn phrase has it; few are quite as much so, however, as that which you seek to make between Paisley and Mandela.

Absolutely

Paisley went from ranting bigot/flirting with terrorist paramilitaries to eventual peace terms with his sworn enemies and finally becoming leader of N. Ireland.

He became chums with his enemies
but remained a bigot to the end

A man who professed to be a "Christian" but brought so much hatred, suffering, misery and violence.

-See Jaws died.
-Paisley?
-Him too.
-Sad abou' Jaws.
-What abou' Paisley?
-Don't know.
-Yeah.
-Hard to know how to feel.
-He fuckin' hated us.
-He mellowed a bit in the end, but.
-That's true. But we all do tha'. Your man over there comin' out of the jacks. I used to think he was a complete c*nt but now he's only a bollix.
-Paisley, but. Granted now, he calmed down an' talked to the Shinners an' they got peace an' tha' up there. An' that's all great. But he went a bit fuckin' overboard, didn't he?
-Grinnin' an' laughin' with McGuinness. He became Mother fuckin' Teresa.
-Peace is overrated annyway, isn't it?
-Borin'.
-I'll tell yeh, but. I'm grateful to him for one thing. Remember when he said the Pope was the antichrist?
-I kind of agreed with him.
-No, yeh didn't. Anyway, I was watchin' it on the News with one o' the kids. An' he says, ‘Da, is the Pope really tha' man's aunty?' An' I start to explain it to him, an' then I think, ‘It's all a load o' bollix.' Religion. It was liberatin'. An' I've the Reverend Ian to thank for tha'.
By: Roddy Doyle

[visualnickmos]

I think to compare IP with Nelson Mandela is atrocious, and quite fankly, a huge insult to Mandela, and everything he stood for, which essentially was the end to the treating of Black South Africans as second-class citizens with practically no rights in society at all - not even the right to question the system.

Mandela struggled and succeeded in achieving equality.

How anyone can think that a man who for years fomented dreadful troubles, can be compared to Mandela is a very bad joke - just not funny, that's all.

[P. G. Tipps]

"Comparisons are odious", as the well-worn phrase has it; few are quite as much so, however, as that which you seek to make between Paisley and Mandela.

You miss the essential point. I'm not comparing Paisley and Mandela as people, heavens no! One can either love or loathe the memory of either as they so wish.

I was simply noting the fact that both men, who took extreme positions at the beginning, finally arrived at a peaceful settlement with their sworn enemies and, indeed, were crucial to that settlement.

One member in particular refuses to acknowledge Dr Paisley's widely-acknowledged contribution to the peace settlement in N. Ireland purely on the grounds of his sincere religious beliefs, which I do not altogether share, either.

I consider that position to be unfair and indeed grossly illiberal and discriminatory ... don't you?

[ahinton]

You miss the essential point. I'm not comparing Paisley and Mandela as people, heavens no! One can either love or loathe the memory of either as they so wish.

I do nothing of the kind. I did not write about your comparison of them as people, distinct from their actions in public life - which said, they were both people...

I was simply noting the fact that both men, who took extreme positions at the beginning, finally arrived at a peaceful settlement with their sworn enemies and, indeed, were crucial to that settlement.

The "extreme position" that you misleadingly ascribe to Nelson Mandela was "extreme" only in the prevailing climate of apartheid South Africa and in the eyes of those who wished to maintain that particular status quo (the prevailing government, the Conservative Party et al).

One member in particular refuses to acknowledge Dr Paisley's widely-acknowledged contribution to the peace settlement in N. Ireland purely on the grounds of his sincere religious beliefs, which I do not altogether share, either.

I am quite certain that this member is far from alone in that view. Paisley turned as he did as a cynical PR exercise, no more, no less.

I'm less concerned about IP being described as a "doctor" than I am at his more commonly encountered description "the Reverend"; much to revile but little to revere, it seems to me.