Dirty Tricks in the Scottish Campaign

[ahinton]

It's a great article in many ways, as usual with George Monbiot, but what it does not do is take account of the political relationship of forces inside Scotland being one in which it is the Scots Nats, namely the Tartan Tories, who hold the ideological hegemony on this issue, not, as he has to admit, the Scottish Labour Party. A Yes voter is asking for a pig in a poke.

...rather as a "No" voter's going to get one in any case without even bothering to ask for it?

[Serial_Apologist]

...rather as a "No" voter's going to get one in any case without even bothering to ask for it?

Why that? Where would the change in status quo then be coming from?

[ahinton]

Why that? Where would the change in status quo then be coming from?

Would the specific origin of the maintenance of that status quo matter in and of itself? - and, if so, why? But to asnwer your question insofar as I feel able to do so, the "choice" would appear to be between said status quo being maintained by the Tartan Tories or by the non-Tartan ones (even though one thereof is a Cameron), in the light of which it seems that the fact that Hobson is not a Scots surname hardly matters either...

[ahinton]

It's OK matey
apparently a woman is going to have a baby
which will make everyone in Scotland vote NO

To what? To any woman resident in Scotland being entitled to have babies in future in post-"independence" Scotland in order to control the Scottish population figure?

[P. G. Tipps]

... the Scots Nats, namely the Tartan Tories ...

That's like something out of a Scottish Labour Party leaflet in the 1970s!

The SNP are a largely left-of-centre party, with a few right-of-centre policies to encourage growth. You may not have noticed that their main planks in support for independence is to end 'undemocratic Tory rule in Scotland' and to remove Trident from the Clyde. Hardly likely to enthuse Tories north of the border.

A label such as "Tartan Tories' is as patently absurd as, say, 'Tartan Trotskyites'!

[Serial_Apologist]

That's like something out of a Scottish Labour Party leaflet in the 1970s!

The SNP are a largely left-of-centre party, with a few right-of-centre policies to encourage growth. You may not have noticed that their main planks in support for independence is to end 'undemocratic Tory rule in Scotland' and to remove Trident from the Clyde. Hardly likely to enthuse Tories north of the border.

A label such as "Tartan Tories' is as patently absurd as, say, 'Tartan Trotskyites'!

Which therefore only goes to demonstrate how far to the right the putative political centre of politics has drifted in the meantime!

[ahinton]

Which therefore only goes to demonstrate how far to the right the putative political centre of politics has drifted in the meantime!

OK but, interesting a subject as thast may be in and of itself, I'm less than convinced that it can be regarded as any kind of fons et origo of the launch, conduct or outcomes of the Scottish "independence" referendum.

To return to what presumably gave rise to member P.G. Tipps' remark - namely the question of who might be held responsible for the maintenance of which status quo - it would not seem to matter as much as the fact and consequences of the status quo itself.

[Flosshilde]

That's like something out of a Scottish Labour Party leaflet in the 1970s!

The SNP are a largely left-of-centre party, with a few right-of-centre policies to encourage growth. You may not have noticed that their main planks in support for independence is to end 'undemocratic Tory rule in Scotland' and to remove Trident from the Clyde. Hardly likely to enthuse Tories north of the border.

A label such as "Tartan Tories' is as patently absurd as, say, 'Tartan Trotskyites'!

The SNP are basically a coalition of left-ish & right wing parties held together by nationalism. If Scotland is independent the nationalism will be redundant & irrelevant; I think that the SNP will come apart. Salmond is fundamentally right-wing; I think Sturgeon is basically left-ish. There could be quite a shifting in the political landscape which could very well surprise those people clamouring for independence because they believe that it will rid them of 'Tory rule'.

(or they might be perfectly content - 'They might be Tories but they're our Tories')

[ahinton]

The question of whose Tories are whose in Scotland or elsewhere seems to me to have less relevance to the referendum discussions than the argument that the single most influential factor likely to influence members of the Scottish electorate to vote "Yes" next week is a profound and still growing discontent with and distrust of the Westminster government - not just the present one but any and all of them - in terms of their perceived and actual ability and willingness to represent the interests of Scotland and the Scottish population.

That said, did anyone really expect clean tricks in this campaign?...

[Dave2002]

The question of whose Tories are whose in Scotland or elsewhere seems to me to have less relevance to the referendum discussions than the argument that the single most influential factor likely to influence members of the Scottish electorate to vote "Yes" next week is a profound and still growing discontent with and distrust of the Westminster government - not just the present one but any and all of them - in terms of their perceived and actual ability and willingness to represent the interests of Scotland and the Scottish population.

Surely you don't think that those of us who normally live south of the border do not also have "a profound and still growing discontent with and distrust of the Westminster government"! OK - we get what we vote for, that's the argument - but a lot of what happens as a result is really rather poor, and often biased towards a geographically favoured part of the UK.

[ahinton]

Surely you don't think that those of us who normally live south of the border do not also have "a profound and still growing discontent with and distrust of the Westminster government"!

Good grief! Of course not! The difference, however, is that Westmonster has granted to the Scottish electorate the right to try to do something about it, which it has not done to "those of us who normally live south of the border".

OK - we get what we vote for, that's the argument - but a lot of what happens as a result is really rather poor, and often biased towards a geographically favoured part of the UK.

Should a "Yes" vote win the day next week, that Scottish electorate will eventually find itself echoing the "we get what we vote for" argument, although whether with chagrin or pride will remain to be seen.

[Dave2002]

Should a "Yes" vote win the day next week, that Scottish electorate will eventually find itself echoing the "we get what we vote for" argument, although whether with chagrin or pride will remain to be seen.

In some ways "Yes" would be very adventurous, and seemingly positive in the short term, yet in other ways one might think "Be careful of what you wish for."

I seem to recall similar wishes being made for counties - such as Yorkshire.

[ahinton]

In some ways "Yes" would be very adventurous, and seemingly positive in the short term, yet in other ways one might think "Be careful of what you wish for."

I seem to recall similar wishes being made for counties - such as Yorkshire.

...or even Herefordshire, which in living memory was merged with Worcestershire as "Hereford & Worcester" but, once the Worcester side of it had syphoned off most of the advantages of this arrangement, it split in two again.

[Serial_Apologist]

the Worcester side of it had syphoned off most of the advantages of this arrangement

What sauce!!!

[Dave2002]

...or even Herefordshire, which in living memory was merged with Worcestershire as "Hereford & Worcester" but, once the Worcester side of it had syphoned off most of the advantages of this arrangement, it split in two again.

I was thinking along the lines of the "Independent country [sic] of Yorkshire"! Also I recall several small pockets in the UK which declared themselves "nuclear free zones."