Yes or No and no bullsh*t

[P. G. Tipps]

Does this imply that you think the nationalists (i.e. Alex Salmond) didn't want/didn't seriously think they had a chance of getting a majority for full independence, since the inclusion of a third option would clearly have worked against it? This has always puzzled me.

From the Nationalist point of view a vote for Home Rule/Devo Max would simply have been another step towards full 'independence'.

However, Salmond, unlike the politically-naive Cameron, reckoned he had a chance of pulling-off the previously unlikely even in a straight fight between the two extremes and it now looks like he has every chance?

Even if it is a NO result, Scotland will get Home Rule/Devo Max anyway (despite the opposition of English nationalists like John Redwood) so this referendum is already game, set and virtual match to the Nationalists!

[amateur51]

From the Nationalist point of view a vote for Home Rule/Devo Max would simply have been another step towards full 'independence'.

However, Salmond, unlike the politically-naive Cameron, reckoned he had a chance of pulling-off the previously unlikely even in a straight fight between the two extremes and it now looks like he has every chance?

Even if it is a NO result, Scotland will get Home Rule/Devo Max anyway (despite the opposition of English nationalists like John Redwood) so this referendum is already game, set and virtual match to the Nationalists!

I don't think that the Welsh Nationalists would agree.

[Beef Oven!]

Can't we "hive off" the Southeast of England instead ?

Brilliant idea!!! Gets my vote :-)

[JimD]

Even if it is a NO result, Scotland will get Home Rule/Devo Max anyway (despite the opposition of English nationalists like John Redwood) so this referendum is already game, set and virtual match to the Nationalists!

Yes I broadly agree, though:
a. the SNP appears to be something of a one-man band, albeit one as cunning as a box of foxes;
b. the Nationalists have a stronger emotional foundation to work with. I have been surprised at the extent (albeit still quite limited) to which Scots have bought the Nationalists' evasions on critical matters of policy and the promise of broad sunlit uplands.

[P. G. Tipps]

#74

Ahinton, without going over everything again I was merely responding to a question put by another member.

We all have our own views on the matter and I simply gave my own. Let me be quite clear about that!

Your point about 'Scottish people' and 'Scotland' might appear unnecessarily pedantic in the circumstances especially as I'm also an Anglo-Scot without a vote. Cameron's father was indeed a Scot but Cameron himself miserably fails the Scottish 'football test' as he passionately supports England. (as Angela Merkel knows only too well!)

The latter point is in no way meant as a "criticism", merely a simple observation.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

the herd instinct in humans has saved sufficient of us from predators and other dangers to enable a pop of 7bn, and growing, planet wide - simple but effective, and alas generalisable - it is our generalisations that fail us eh?

i thought the rest of the UK did live off the South East; well at as much as we need in order to sign the debt agreements with the giant vampire money sucking squid eh ....

as ever it is the wrong question ... No Ta

[ahinton]

Your point about 'Scottish people' and 'Scotland' might appear unnecessarily pedantic in the circumstances especially as I'm also an Anglo-Scot without a vote.

Hardly pedantic when the referendum is so noisily marketed as an instrument that gives the Scots the right to decide, whereas those to whom Westminster has given entitlement to make that decision are those esidents of Scotland who are already entitled to vote in General Elections and local elections irrespective of where they come from.

Cameron's father was indeed a Scot but Cameron himself miserably fails the Scottish 'football test' as he passionately supports England. (as Angela Merkel knows only too well!)

He's only half Scots, so I don't see why he should be subjecgted to such a "football test".

[MrGongGong]

He's only half Scots, so I don't see why he should be subjecgted to such a "football test".

Which half ?
His head or his arse?

It is possible that he will go down in history as the PM who "Lost" Scotland (ooooops)
which might, instead of giving us more and more rightwing politicians, make some change in the rest of the UK

(but i'm not holding my breath)

[ahinton]

Which half ?
His head or his arse?

Probably; take your pick.

It is possible that he will go down in history as the PM who "Lost" Scotland (ooooops)

That's already been said quite a few times. As he cannot vote in the referendum, I don't think that this would be quite correct and I imagine that many voters on both sides would counter such a suggestion by noting that Scotland isn't his to lose...

which might, instead of giving us more and more rightwing politicians, make some change in the rest of the UK (but i'm not holding my breath)

I'm not holding mine, either - not least because I cannot see the outcome of the referendum, whichever way it goes, making the slightest difference to the quantity or quality of right-wing politicians elsewhere in UK and I have to admit to being somewhat puzzled as to the grounds upon which you think that it might or even could.

[P. G. Tipps]

That's already been said quite a few times ...

Maybe simply because it happens to be true ... ?

Whether one calls it 'lost' or something else, if it is a YES vote Cameron will not only have presided over it, but, however inadvertently, played a very major part in its coming about!

[ahinton]

Maybe simply because it happens to be true ... ?

Whether one calls it 'lost' or something else, if it is a YES vote Cameron will not only have presided over it, but, however inadvertently, played a very major part in its coming about!

I don't see the logic of that. Yes, the granting of the referndum would not have happened without him but, as he has no right to vote in it and as Scotland is not his personal property, I do not see that he could be accused of "losing" it (Scotland, that is!) even if a "Yes" is the outcome. Some might even say that it would in any case be no "loss" as such although, since Mr Cameron's party has, as I've already pointed out, almost no representative support in Scotland, it might arguably not be seen as much of a "loss" to that party...

[Flosshilde]

I think it's meant in the same way as a general is said to lose a battle. He's not the only one fighting in it, indeed he might be many miles behind the front line (or sitting cosily at home) working out tactics, but it's still his responsibility.

[MrGongGong]

I think it's meant in the same way as a general is said to lose a battle. He's not the only one fighting in it, indeed he might be many miles behind the front line (or sitting cosily at home) working out tactics, but it's still his responsibility.

Agreed
I think that the arrogant complacency of ALL the political parties will hopefully get a kicking regardless of the result.

Giving 16 year olds the vote in something that will affect them more than older people is to be welcomed IMV
The teenagers I met in Scotland a couple of weeks ago were passionately engaged with real debate about THEIR future.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Can't we "hive off" the Southeast of England instead ?

There was a television programme looking at that very idea, calling the resulting overpopulated country with few natural resources "Albion".

[P. G. Tipps]

I don't see the logic of that. Yes, the granting of the referndum would not have happened without him but, as he has no right to vote in it and as Scotland is not his personal property, I do not see that he could be accused of "losing" it (Scotland, that is!) even if a "Yes" is the outcome. Some might even say that it would in any case be no "loss" as such although, since Mr Cameron's party has, as I've already pointed out, almost no representative support in Scotland, it might arguably not be seen as much of a "loss" to that party...

As I've already mentioned it was Cameron who insisted the third option on the ballot paper was not to be part of the referendum agreement, nobody else. If it had been there everybody in Scotland knows it would have won comfortably and, even if it hadn't, there would still have been little chance of a majority for 'independence'.

Whether anyone thinks Scotland is worth the bother or not as regards the rest of the UK is not the point. You don't have to think something is particularly valuable to lose it.

Unfortunately for Cameron, Scotland may not be that valuable for the Tory Party, but it is essential in order to retain the UK's place in the world, both politically and economically, as many will no doubt discover after any YES vote. To be fair to Cameron, he at least already knows this, hence the sudden panic!

He miscalculated, pure and simple.