Anyone else done an Archbishop ?

[amateur51]

And yet the irony is that we allegedly treat human life as more important than that of other animals, some of which we are prepared to experiment with new drugs on in the hope that our suffering will end or lives be saved.

Sometimes the suffering of animals is the price they pay for our entertainment/education ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-28439802

[Serial_Apologist]

We don't do "safeguards" in the UK very well when it comes to some of the most vulnerable do we ?

The fact that the inevitable end means we're "all in this together", vulnerable and invulnerable, offers policymakers the strongest possible insurance-motivation anyone could think up against my choice to have my suffering ended trumping another's to allow matters to proceed regardless in Petrushka's scenario that

once the door is open, even by the tiniest amount there is no shutting it again

If not for this issue, then one might as well give up on safeguards in any area of life

[jean]

Improved pain management and palliative care are often held up as alternatives to assisted suicide by those opposed to it. Sadly almost all the drugs that cut pain quite dramatically also cause terrible constipation and poor breathing...

And they do not work on all kinds of pain.

A friend who had pancreatic cancer was mercifully pain-free at the end. For another, who had bone cancer, things were very different.

[P. G. Tipps]

You mean a woman's right to choose.

The idea of making a doctor or two the arbiter of a woman's decision was never going to be satisfactory.

It is not a question of our views on abortion, or the admittedly much less serious issue of shopping hours.

I merely highlighted these as cases where we were told 'at the outset 'here and no further' and these assurances proved wholly meaningless. The 'slippery slope' and 'thin end of the wedge' advocates at the time have been proved 100% correct. That is undeniable as it is now staring us all straight in the face!!

slippery slopes[/I], aka thin ends of wedges, is therefore not apposite in this case..

No, of course not ... that is exactly what the rule-changers always say as well!

Shopping hours[/I] probably belong in a different category.

Of course shopping hours do ... but the argument is about 'slippery slopes' amd 'thin end of wedges' not the level of moral seriousness. The point is that those in authority who gently pat us on the head and assure us that they will never ever cross the next line always seem to be proved wrong!

Any change in our euthanasia laws will inevitably lead to pressure for others to be considered for assisted suicide. And why not? Once you have crossed a very thick line future thin lines are a relative dawdle to negotiate.

[jean]

... but the argument is about 'slippery slopes' amd 'thin end of wedges'...

Fallacious argument, that's the trouble.

http://www.skepticsfieldguide.net/2012/08/slippery-slope.html

Everyone knew that the only sensible position was to allow women themselves to choose whether to have abortions or not. Any intermittent stage was never going to be more than just that - no slippery slopes involved at all.

[teamsaint]

Fallacious argument, that's the trouble.

http://www.skepticsfieldguide.net/2012/08/slippery-slope.html

Everyone knew that the only sensible position was to allow women themselves to choose whether to have abortions or not. Any intermittent stage was never going to be more than just that - no slippery slopes involved at all.

i'm not sure that they did, actually.

Lots of people "knew " differently,and many still do.

[jean]

Deluded.

Most of you, being men, will probably not be aware of this, but even back in the 60s it was quite easy to get an abortion - you just had to know where to go, and have the money to pay for it.

[P. G. Tipps]

Deluded.

Most of you, being men, will probably not be aware of this ..

Would you therefore recommend that most Forum members have a sex-change on the NHS to increase their general awareness, madam ... ?

[jean]

Oh no, that won't be necessary - you just have to pay proper attention to what I tell you.

[Flosshilde]

But it might be a good idea for selected members (ahem)

[amateur51]

But it might be a good idea for selected members (ahem)

Boldly gone Flossie!

[amateur51]

Oh no, that won't be necessary - you just have to pay proper attention to what I tell you.

Bit late now but I think if Mr Tipps had been on the anti-Corrie Bill marches he would remember the passion and intelligence with which the arguments in favour of 'a woman's right to choose' were made.

It is precisely because heterosexual men in general still regard issues of contraception as being completely the responsibility of women that attitudes such as Mr Tipps' on abortion are still around.

[MrGongGong]

It is precisely because heterosexual men in general still regard issues of contraception as being completely the responsibility of women that attitudes such as Mr Tipps' on abortion are still around.

indeed
It's a shame that this subject is always hijacked by those of a "religious persuasion"
I spy a serious conflation

When my mother started going on about this I asked her if she had ever made a decision that she later regretted? To which her answer was "NO" ........... 1st prize for self delusion methinks

[aeolium]

The reason this issue keeps coming up is that there are significant numbers of people who are dying in circumstances of exceptional distress and indignity, and there are even greater numbers of their friends and relatives witnessing that suffering. So strong is the life force that it must be unusually powerful mental or physical suffering that leads someone to want to end his life, and to be supported in that wish by those who are closest and dearest to him. Yet strangely permitting assisted suicide is viewed as denying people the "right to life" (as I heard an opponent say on the radio the other day). No right to life is being denied at all to those who wish to continue living - on the contrary, the duty to live even to the bitter end is being imposed on those living with desperately unpleasant terminal conditions.

The "slippery slope" argument is to me an extremely poor one: it is an argument for doing nothing about any difficult moral issue. Legalising homosexuality - the slippery slope to legalising all kinds of sexual deviancy. Legalising gay marriage - the slippery slope to "society degenerating even further than it already has into immorality". No generation should be hidebound by the moral principles of an earlier age: it must discover its own. Fortunately the weight of opinion is moving in favour of change: this was the polling two years ago, and a more recent poll last year conducted among religious believers of various faiths was even more striking.

[MrGongGong]

Could someone give me an example where the UK has "safeguards" that work ?
This is ALWAYS brushed aside
but IMV is the key issue