Gaza

[Serial_Apologist]

Ah well, it would appear, given the gullibility and ostrich-like tendencies of most posters here that Hamas have won the propaganda war.

It's blatantly obvious that the Israelis, supposing they did actually have a case over Hamas's rockets, could take out the sites "surgically" (horrible word, but there we go). And in any case, who in this day and age of multicultural mixing, speaks of looking after "our" people, as if "our" people are designated for superior consideration to others?

[P. G. Tipps]

It's difficult to know how Israel can achieve 'surgical' operations in civilian areas from where the rockets are being launched? This is the root of the problem for Israel and one should not forget the responsibilty for this lies squarely with Hamas.

However, I do consider the Israeli current action to be deeply and morally wrong and indeed cruel. The Israelis seem perfectly capable of dealing with just about everything Hamas throws at them without too much difficulty, so one does question why this slaughter of innocent men, women and children is deemed so necessary. As others before me have pointed out it's a bit like the British Army and RAF attacking West Belfast during the IRA bombings on the mainland.

Of course politics is also very much involved here as well and, as usual, some in the West can be very selective in their condemnation. Thousands of Christians and other minorities are currently being slaughtered in various parts of the Middle East without apparently as much as a peep of concern, never mind expressions of horror, from the same quarters.

Sadly, the flaws in human nature point to the fact that some human beings will never stop killing each other and evil will always exist. I came across this interesting article on the BBC news website the other day .. as 'religion' is often blamed (and used as an excuse) for these largely tribal disputes throughout the world it is a reminder expression of the human reality, however unwelcome and unpalatable that undoubtedly is.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28341562

[aeolium]

Here is an apposite comment on the abandonment of the Palestinians to their fate by the Arab states (though it ought to be said that some states, particularly Jordan, have been very generous in accommodating large numbers of refugees):

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/08/egypt-saudi-arabia-arab-world-has-abandoned-palestinians

The uncertain element for the future is the extent to which Islamic revolutionaries may change the politics of that region. The Islamic State rebels fighting in Iraq and Syria, for instance, are Sunnis like the majority of Palestinians.

[Serial_Apologist]

It's difficult to know how Israel can achieve 'surgical' operations in civilian areas from where the rockets are being launched? This is the root of the problem for Israel and one should not forget the responsibilty for this lies squarely with Hamas.

I'm sorry: whether or not we like them, Hamas have resorted to rockets with little alternative choice - the alternative being for the Palestinians to lie down and submit to be trampled all over; and we were shown clear Israeli footage from cameras pinpointing rockets launching from sites which could themselves have been pinpointed for destruction, not hospitals, mosques, or UN schools.

However, I do consider the Israeli current action to be deeply and morally wrong and indeed cruel. The Israelis seem perfectly capable of dealing with just about everything Hamas throws at them without too much difficulty, so one does question why this slaughter of innocent men, women and children is deemed so necessary. As others before me have pointed out it's a bit like the British Army and RAF attacking West Belfast during the IRA bombings on the mainland.

I agree, but there is too much shilly-shallying here - one has to make up ones mind either one way or the other: does Israel have a choice about how it targets enemies or does it not?

Of course politics is also very much involved here as well and, as usual, some in the West can be very selective in their condemnation. Thousands of Christians and other minorities are currently being slaughtered in various parts of the Middle East without apparently as much as a peep of concern, never mind expressions of horror, from the same quarters.

Is this actually true? I detect a good deal of hand-wringing over the fate of Christians in the region in general and the religious sect escaping slaughter on a mountain top in Iraq, and it seems the Americans are now attacking ISIS to try to prevent such slaughter. With nothing whatever progressive about the jihadists one is now forced to support the lesser of two evils, apparently, or fence-sit.

Sadly, the flaws in human nature point to the fact that some human beings will never stop killing each other and evil will always exist [...] 'religion' is often blamed (and used as an excuse) for these largely tribal disputes throughout the world it is a reminder expression of the human reality, however unwelcome and unpalatable that undoubtedly is.

Religion may not yet have superseded class as the core basis of conflict in the world today, but in making people out to consist in what they believe about themselves and the nature of things, rather than in a common humanity superceding all considerations excepting compliance with natural law, it's making a strong bid for the accolade. That says more about religion as one of the many false gateways to socialisation than it does the thwarting and wasting of human intelligence and liberated potential.

[amateur51]

Ah well, it would appear, given the gullibility and ostrich-like tendencies of most posters here that Hamas have won the propaganda war.

Is this the Prof on his vac signing in from Nutwood Uni? :astonishmentagogo:

[P. G. Tipps]

I'm sorry: whether or not we like them, Hamas have resorted to rockets with little alternative choice - the alternative being for the Palestinians to lie down and submit to be trampled all over; and we were shown clear Israeli footage from cameras pinpointing rockets launching from sites which could themselves have been pinpointed for destruction, not hospitals, mosques, or UN schools..

Well, only Hamas and the Israelis know the full truth of the matter but, even if you are correct, the launching of rockets into Israel is a completely futile exercise and has contributed to the deaths of many innocent men, women and children in Gaza. Whilst I deplore this particular Israeli action, which I cannot see can be morally justified in any way, the plain fact remains it is the direct result of these Hamas rockets.

Of course the Palestinian situation is a truly wretched one, and any objective outside observer will have every sympathy for their (the Palestinians) plight. If 'not lying down' simply means more and more Palestinians including women and children getting slaughtered, with any remaining chance of political progress towards their own state fast disappearing, then what on earth is the point of that?

As for your comments about 'religion' and 'class' I don't think either of these are particularly relevant in Gaza. Again it seems to be two stubborn tribes warring apparently completely oblivious to the fact that neither will ultimately triumph, and that a compromise solution is the only way forward. That is where I agree with the self-labelled atheist, John Gray ... it seems human beings are simply incapable of learning lessons when it comes to the utter futility and destructiveness of warfare, when men and women of peace and goodwill could easily come to a compromise solution if the will for that were really present.

It is actually we stupid human beings wot's to blame, not class and/or religion or that matter anything else!

[Serial_Apologist]

Well, only Hamas and the Israelis know the full truth of the matter but, even if you are correct, the launching of rockets into Israel is a completely futile exercise and has contributed to the deaths of many innocent men, women and children in Gaza. Whilst I deplore this particular Israeli action, which I cannot see can be morally justified in any way, the plain fact remains it is the direct result of these Hamas rockets.

Of course the Palestinian situation is a truly wretched one, and any objective outside observer will have every sympathy for their (the Palestinians) plight. If 'not lying down' simply means more and more Palestinians including women and children getting slaughtered, with any remaining chance of political progress towards their own state fast disappearing, then what on earth is the point of that?

OK, objectively I'll grant you that, up to a point; I just don't think it's our place to dictate what the Palestinians should or should not do confronted with their besieged situation, nor tell them what is in their best interests when successive British and American governments have failed to put any pressure on Israel and continued unconditionally to regard that country as an ally.

As for your comments about 'religion' and 'class' I don't think either of these are particularly relevant in Gaza. Again it seems to be two stubborn tribes warring apparently completely oblivious to the fact that neither will ultimately triumph, and that a compromise solution is the only way forward. That is where I agree with the self-labelled atheist, John Gray ... it seems human beings are simply incapable of learning lessons when it comes to the utter futility and destructiveness of warfare, when men and women of peace and goodwill could easily come to a compromise solution if the will for that were really present.

It is actually we stupid human beings wot's to blame, not class and/or religion or that matter anything else!

Well I'm sure you would not start a war and that you are no more to blame than I for the problems of the world; however it is still class and religion that command people to support futile self-destructive causes, because they are brought up from birth to obey higher authorities as being receptacles of greater wisdoms, whether those higher authorities be God or by dint of being people with power and money to get things done, irrespective of what, and order people around.

[Serial_Apologist]

Perhaps, just perhaps, if all the people with power, influence money, stopped telling us that we are all evil and doomed for ever to fight and kill each other because we are incapable of cooperation, it would be a big help.
That , and if they stopped selling arms to anybody with cash to spend, all too frequently cash supplied by rich powerful governments.

Most people live and work together in peace and cooperation most of the time. We are actually an astonishingly cooperative species generally.

The whole "you are evil, we need to control you, and sell arms to keep the peace" charade is surely the biggest con trick in history.

Yes TS, but I'm willing to bet that you've also noticed the disingenuous way in which peace and co-operation are doled out under our system. Basically the spectre of an outside enemy is first of all invoked as a pretext for our seeing ourselves as belonging with this, rather than that lot. Indeed, having this external enemy is exemplified as the only way in which we can be at peace and co-operate with each other; the "spirit of the Blitz" is always invoked in this connection, and we are continually reminded that the various ruses working class people thought up to get around rationing, for instance, showed such unselfishness to be a transient and questionable human quality instead of useful initiative, subject to limited endurability without prospect of ultimate reward. Which is why religion is so important. This would not seem to apply to private companies, whose success is deemed to rest upon employees being persuaded that their loyalty to the employer exceeds that towards fellow workers in competing firms; indeed, where I worked, they actually subdivided the manufacturing process into inter-competing departments, with uplifting pep talks delivered quarterly to keep us at odds with the rest of the workforce. Imagine what would happen if the stomach suddenly decided one day it was fed up with the teeth and jaws having all that privilege of being able to profit by having pleasure-giving, toxicity pre-warning taste buds, and held a meeting between its constituent bacteria and chemicals that decided it would no longer accept all this masticated food being thrust into it, and would throw it all up. The edifice apart from which it was unable to operate would soon auto-destruct, and itself along with it! But of course the real reason the capitalist class gets away with instilling this, well, its us or them attitude, is that most firms operate on the basis that they may be gone and superseded tomorrow, so in other words that loyalty is conditional upon a concatenation of interrelationships tenuously held together by exigencies of market position, engineered public taste, commercial secrecy, with employee insecurity making up a big, BIG motivator. The longest-lasting firms like LLoyds TSB are mostly those that achieved monopoly at the right time, and, as Mrs Thatcher said, that monopoly nonetheless masked unacknowledged inefficiencies and restrictive practices, while inhibiting (or disincentivising, to use managementspeak) the entrepreneurial spirit that would Put Britain Back Where It Once Was When We had An Empire And Lots of Slaves.

Oh, I've gone and said too much!

[P. G. Tipps]

We are actually an astonishingly cooperative species generally.

Only when we think it is in our interests to be so, I'd have thought.

Otherwise we tend to fight and squabble or at the very least refuse to cooperate.

Of course there are many well-meaning, selfless people around, but to be so doesn't come naturally it has to be constantly worked at.

To be selfish takes no effort, which is why it is correct to say that is very much part of our base nature whether we like to admit it or not.

[Serial_Apologist]

Only when we think it is in our interests to be so, I'd have thought.

I.e most of the time, I'd have thought.

Otherwise we tend to fight and squabble or at the very least refuse to cooperate.

You need principles telling you what is good for the whole situation and the people in it in order to recognise when it's wise to co-operate or refuse.

Of course there are many well-meaning, selfless people around, but to be so doesn't come naturally it has to be constantly worked at.

Drop people into an ideological vacuum, they have a "natural" tendency to put up the defenses, i.e turn to the right - rather as water going down the plughole has a natural tendency to turn anticlockwise (in the northern hemisphere). It's environmental, innit.

To be selfish takes no effort, which is why it is correct to say that is very much part of our base nature whether we like to admit it or not.

And yet in actuality one expends a huge amount of unnecessary effort being selfish, in terms of needing constantly to be on ones mettle dealing with the reactions of others consequent on one's one-upmanship-like keeping ahead of the pack, and the body dealing with the stress caused by the resultant thinking inside its alienated head.

[teamsaint]

Only when we think it is in our interests to be so, I'd have thought.

Otherwise we tend to fight and squabble or at the very least refuse to cooperate.

Of course there are many well-meaning, selfless people around, but to be so doesn't come naturally it has to be constantly worked at.

To be selfish takes no effort, which is why it is correct to say that is very much part of our base nature whether we like to admit it or not.

well, no, really.

As S-A says, being selfish can be hard work.
Plus it is drummed into us from day one, via fearful parents, and a media that reflects , in the main all of those competitive selfish values to the exclusion of most else.

[P. G. Tipps]

well, no, really.

As S-A says, being selfish can be hard work.

Okay, I must be a natural genius then, I suppose ... <champagne smiley>

[Serial_Apologist]

Avaaz are raising a petition to the PM calling for an end to the UK exporting armaments. Hopefully this is not transgressing any rules, but fwiw here it is:

https://secure.38degrees.org.uk/page...srael#petition

38 Degrees emails to say 95,000 have signed the abovementioned petition, which is due to be handed in to the government tomorrow (Thursday), in case anyone else wants including.

[amateur51]

Avaaz has a petition to the PM demanding that UK stops selling arms to Israel and to Russia.

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/murder_made_in_britain_loc/?tqQnOab

Let's keep the pressure up!

[aeolium]

I liked these thoughtful comments from Daniel Barenboim, someone who remains optimistic in a very bleak time of destruction and hatred:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-28868318