Gaza

[jean]

I was hoping you could get your friend to elaborate on the particular ways in which he felt Israelis were 'different' from him, and why that might have made him less likely to condemn them.

That is what I don't understand, especially since distancing oneself from the perpetrators of something one deplores seems to make it easier rather than more difficult to condemn the perpetrators, in other examples I can think of.

(I have never heard any of my Jewish friends, secular or religious, whatever their relationship to Israel, say anything like that, which means I have no point of reference for such a view.)

[Serial_Apologist]

I'm sorry about that, but it doesn't seem obscure to me.

I can well understand many jewish people feeling in a cleft stick over the present situation and not wanting to put their heads over the parapet re-support vs criticism or condemnation, or any public demonstration thereof. There was an item on last night's Channel 4 News (I think) in which Israeli citizens in opposition inside Israel have been subject to vilification and bullying.

[jean]

I can well understand many jewish people feeling in a cleft stick over the present situation and not wanting to put their heads over the parapet re-support vs criticism or condemnation, or any public demonstration thereof.

I have no difficulty in understanding that.

And there may be all kinds of reasons for it, but I cannot see how they are different from us (even said sheepishly) could be one.

This article explores some of the complexities.

Of course if, whether you are Jewish or not, you think that the state of Israel should never have been established ion the first place, then for you the matter is very simple.

[Serial_Apologist]

I have no difficulty in understanding that.

And there may be all kinds of reasons for it, but I cannot see how they are different from us (even said sheepishly) could be one.

This article explores some of the complexities.

Of course if, whether you are Jewish or not, you think that the state of Israel should never have been established in the first place, then for you the matter is very simple.

Indeed: given that it was intended as the promised homeland for jewish peoples, could Israel ever have been set up on non-sectarian lines?

[Dave2002]

He meant that his liberal jewish friends, while horrified like the rest of us, somehow managed in their minds to justify inaction by saying that Israelis were not like them. We so often fail to take a real stand, and not just our jewish acquaintances, because we are able in our minds to make the perpetrators as 'other' in some way.

Why are we not expressing national outrage? So far the public reaction outside the media has been muted at best.

We are, allegedly, about to mount a campaign against Russia and Putin. The excuse for that appears to be the bungled shooting down of an airliner.

At the same time, we are doing little to condemn Israel's action against innocents in Gaza. Of course Israelis have problems with Hamas, but 100 eyes for an eye, 100 teeth for a tooth, does not seem to me to be a 21st Century doctrine with any humanity at all.

[johnb]

Perhaps we should condemn the US even more that Israel. They support Israel in whatever it does and have the power to put enormous pressure on the country by turning off its military and financial aid.

[Dave2002]

Perhaps we should condemn the US even more that Israel. They support Israel in whatever it does and have the power to put enormous pressure on the country by turning off its military and financial aid.

There is a significant Jewish lobby in the US, which arguably has disproportionate influence. However, I feel sure that many of the Americans who would normally support Israel may find some of that country's current strategies very hard to support.

[Serial_Apologist]

There is a significant Jewish lobby in the US, which arguably has disproportionate influence. However, I feel sure that many of the Americans who would normally support Israel may find some of that country's current strategies very hard to support.

It's high time a top newscaster over there asked those political shilly-shalliers at what point they would consider Israel to have gone beyond support - what would it take.

[kea]

I have the suspicion that Americans' support for Israel has more to do with Islamophobia than Judeophilia.

(The American government's support for Israel meanwhile has to do with having an American "outpost" in the Middle East against the terrorists/communists/Chinese/whatever.)

[Dave2002]

I have the suspicion that Americans' support for Israel has more to do with Islamophobia than Judeophilia.

Like one of my earlier assertions, that is hard to prove. However, I think you may be wrong on this. I doubt that many Americans really think of Israel in the context of an anti-Islamic state which they might care about. If they have fears regarding any threats from Islamists and they really want to put their concerns into practical forms, then supporting Israel is not particularly the first way that comes to mind.

On the other hand, there are many Jewish Americans who do feel strongly enough about Israel to support it, and in some cases to donate very large sums of money for that purpose.

Your point about the US government's position is, however, very likely close to the heart of the matter, or at least one strong motivation for it.

[MrGongGong]

I think this is a big part of the problem (and it's NOT confined to Dave and chums they are all at it!)

http://www2.cfoi.co.uk/

Is there a Lib Dem friends of Genocide ?
or a Labour friends of child murderers ?

If one reads the "news" here there is nothing about what is happening now
reminds me of what Daniel Barenboim wrote in his book about the East West orchestra

[johnb]

I think this is a big part of the problem (and it's NOT confined to Dave and chums they are all at it!)

This is from their website.

“I am proud not just to be a Conservative, but a Conservative Friend of Israel; and I am proud of the key role CFI plays within our Party”. Rt Hon David Cameron MP, Prime Minister

CFI works to promote its twin aims of supporting Israel and promoting Conservatism. With close to 2,000 activists as members – alongside 80% of Tory MPs – CFI is active at every level of the Party.

CFI organises numerous events in and around Westminster, takes Conservative parliamentarians and candidates on delegations to Israel, campaigns hard for Tory candidates in target seats, and works to ensure that Israel’s case is fairly represented in Parliament.

[MrGongGong]

This is from their website.

Quite
Now the conspiracy theories about a Jewish "Mafia" ruling the world are just that, Nonsense
BUT I wonder where they start ?

"Don't poke a bear with a stick"

[jean]

Now the conspiracy theories about a Jewish "Mafia" ruling the world are just that, Nonsense
BUT I wonder where they start ?

Please wonder elsewhere.

[amateur51]

On the other hand, there are many Jewish Americans who do feel strongly enough about Israel to support it, and in some cases to donate very large sums of money for that purpose.

Of course, there are plenty of Americans with Irish connections who collected squillions for the IRA back in the day, which resulted in maiming and murder in UK so we know what that's all about.