Gaza

[aeolium]

think about the wider picture

The "wider picture" is that Israel has been occupying Palestinian land, as defined by the UN in the 1967 borders, for nearly 50 years during which time it has constantly expanded its illegal settlements so that Palestinians have even less land. Gaza is effectively a large prison in which Israel controls the flow of goods and people, and in the last eight years has reduced that flow to a bare minimum so that the inhabitants of Gaza are struggling to survive. Israel, as an occupying power, has an obligation to protect and shelter those within its occupation, but instead it has periodically bombed, shelled and killed them. The Palestinians have the right to resist occupation and, after all, what good is peace to them? It means a continuation of the privations of the prison-like existence. They are, effectively, forced to turn to violence by the refusal of the Israelis to lift the stifling siege or admit that their policy of consolidating illegal settlements is counter-productive.

The other wider picture, touched on in this article, is that the older springs of resistance to Israel, i.e. Arab nationalism and externally based organisations like the PLO, have been replaced as a result of the developments in the region by a new Islamic radicalism, fighting in Syria and Iraq. This radicalism may well turn its attention to Israel as they see fellow-Muslims killed in Gaza. The old uneasy stability that Israel used to be able to rely on, with grudgingly supportive regimes in Jordan, Egypt and Syria, may no longer apply.

[amateur51]

Such eloquence, MrGG. Such profound insight. Almost worthy of 'Angry of Tunbridge Wells'.

Shall we bring a little touch of reality to this discussion? So just exactly why all the hand-ringing?

So many in Gaza killed (do we have any evidence as to the accuracy of the claimed number by Hamas? No, thought not). So few Israelis killed. It's just not cricket, chaps.

I am guessing that you are too young to have been around when the V1's were landing in London. So you won't quite appreciate or understand the fear when that phut..phut..phut stops. Not knowing exactly where it is going to land. Or who it might be going to kill. So that's a pretty good reason to want it to stop.

The long-term solution is to resolve the differences with dialogue and discussion. Both sides are equally to blame in not resolving this. But in the meantime, those rockets are still falling. Over 100 a day.

So why are Hamas so dumb? If you were a six-stone weakling and having a dispute with your 6ft martial arts expert next-door neighbour over the location of the garden fence, you'd be pretty stupid if you kept going up to him and poking him in the eye with a sharp stick. He is a patient man but eventually that patience is going to where thin and he is going to strike back. Which is precisely what Israel has done.

But then you, Hamas, knew that so why not make maximum PR out of it? Why not maximise the body count by locating the rocket launchers next door to schools. Next door to a hospital. They could have located them down by the beach. But no, they chose to locate them where they did which seems pretty callous of Hamas in my book.

So before you start hammering those keys again, Mr Angry-of-Tunbridge-Wells, just pause and get a grip of yourself and think about the wider picture.

Clever stuff phoenix but your analysis does not take into account the psychological effects of being attacked, having your land stolen & built on by your attackers, who have the world's biggest bully as their ally.

That Hamas' rockets are at best merely spiteful and ineffective beyond being irritating is not disputed. But imagine being in a situation where you are reduced to being spiteful and irritating. Put your feet into their sandals and walk a few miles in them - perhaps you'll then understand more.

[MrGongGong]

Such eloquence, MrGG. Such profound insight. Almost worthy of 'Angry of Tunbridge Wells'.

Shall we bring a little touch of reality to this discussion? So just exactly why all the hand-ringing?

So many in Gaza killed (do we have any evidence as to the accuracy of the claimed number by Hamas? No, thought not). So few Israelis killed. It's just not cricket, chaps.

I am guessing that you are too young to have been around when the V1's were landing in London. So you won't quite appreciate or understand the fear when that phut..phut..phut stops. Not knowing exactly where it is going to land. Or who it might be going to kill. So that's a pretty good reason to want it to stop.

The long-term solution is to resolve the differences with dialogue and discussion. Both sides are equally to blame in not resolving this. But in the meantime, those rockets are still falling. Over 100 a day.

So why are Hamas so dumb? If you were a six-stone weakling and having a dispute with your 6ft martial arts expert next-door neighbour over the location of the garden fence, you'd be pretty stupid if you kept going up to him and poking him in the eye with a sharp stick. He is a patient man but eventually that patience is going to where thin and he is going to strike back. Which is precisely what Israel has done.

But then you, Hamas, knew that so why not make maximum PR out of it? Why not maximise the body count by locating the rocket launchers next door to schools. Next door to a hospital. They could have located them down by the beach. But no, they chose to locate them where they did which seems pretty callous of Hamas in my book.

So before you start hammering those keys again, Mr Angry-of-Tunbridge-Wells, just pause and get a grip of yourself and think about the wider picture.

Why are you being an apologist for evil people ?
At least you did me the favour of not doing the everyone who opposes Israel is Anti-semitic sh*te

The "wider picture" as you put it is that a supposedly "democratic" (well not really if you aren't one of the "right" people) country is using unreasonable and illegal weapons against children, hospitals etc etc if the only people to stand up for you in this situation are Hamas then that's what people will do.

Israel is allowed to walk all over international law with the blessing of western governments.
The "wider' picture is that our government has allowed Israel to steal land, water, oppress it's opponents for too long.
Look at the maps

The UK has gone to war over less in recent memory our complicity shames us as a nation

[kea]

The "wider picture" is that Israel has been occupying Palestinian land, as defined by the UN in the 1967 borders, for nearly 50 years during which time it has constantly expanded its illegal settlements so that Palestinians have even less land. Gaza is effectively a large prison in which Israel controls the flow of goods and people, and in the last eight years has reduced that flow to a bare minimum so that the inhabitants of Gaza are struggling to survive. Israel, as an occupying power, has an obligation to protect and shelter those within its occupation, but instead it has periodically bombed, shelled and killed them. The Palestinians have the right to resist occupation and, after all, what good is peace to them? It means a continuation of the privations of the prison-like existence. They are, effectively, forced to turn to violence by the refusal of the Israelis to lift the stifling siege or admit that their policy of consolidating illegal settlements is counter-productive.

The other wider picture, touched on in this article, is that the older springs of resistance to Israel, i.e. Arab nationalism and externally based organisations like the PLO, have been replaced as a result of the developments in the region by a new Islamic radicalism, fighting in Syria and Iraq. This radicalism may well turn its attention to Israel as they see fellow-Muslims killed in Gaza. The old uneasy stability that Israel used to be able to rely on, with grudgingly supportive regimes in Jordan, Egypt and Syria, may no longer apply.

It's also worth remembering that Hamas was itself funded by Israel once upon a time, in order to disrupt and weaken the PLO and therefore justify Israeli occupation because the Palestinians clearly couldn't stand up on their own. Similar to the US sponsoring Al Qaeda in order to get the Russians out of Afghanistan. Gee, that'll never backfire, eh?

... And that both Hamas and the IDF are much weaker than they used to be. Hamas's rocket attacks are pretty ineffective—they know it and Israel knows it—they haven't had any real successes in a long time. Israel's once-formidable military power has waned greatly with the increasing lack of support from the population—conscription-based armies derive most of their power from the psychology of the citizens that make them up—as well as the changing nature of warfare, and it's likely any full-scale war it would wage today would be drawn-out and bloody. Thus both of them feel the need to prove their might. Hamas needs to show they are "tough on Israel" to win the support of that Islamic radical base, Israel needs to show it is "tough on Muslims" to win the support of its Jewish radical base and "capable of self-defense" to avoid losing the support of the moderate "silent majority", whatever happened to them.

[MrGongGong]

I hear on this mornings news that there are to be sanctions against Russia
SO what about Israel ? or does our government think that somehow they have different rules to the rest of the world ?

If one aim was to stop anti-semitism then maybe treating the government of Israel with the same rules as everyone else would prevent those with genuine grievances from turning to some very nasty people indeed.

[Serial_Apologist]

I watched footage last night of the Ukrainian army firing shells into rebel-held territory. These big guns are sited wherever it is possible to site them without, I would have thought, much due consideration for target accuracy. So long as the damned shells hit somewhere in the target territory this is enough to punish the recipients for not themselves dealing with those purporting to be defending them. Israel is using exactly the same means of blind attack against the Gazan Palestinians as Hamas are using by blindly firing off rockets.

The other night we were showed Israeli cameras clearly focussed on the precise location from which a rocket was shown to be being fired. If modern warfare is being accurately put across as technologically equipped to ensure "laser" precision targetting (by means of drones for example), how is it that we are continuously being presented by "balanced broadcasting" with the two sides as equally to blame?

It's impossible not to conclude that we are being lied to.

[amateur51]

I watched footage last night of the Ukrainian army firing shells into rebel-held territory. These big guns are sited wherever it is possible to site them without, I would have thought, much due consideration for target accuracy. So long as the damned shells hit somewhere in the target territory this is enough to punish the recipients for not themselves dealing with those purporting to be defending them. Israel is using exactly the same means of blind attack against the Gazan Palestinians as Hamas are using by blindly firing off rockets.

The other night we were showed Israeli cameras clearly focussed on the precise location from which a rocket was shown to be being fired. If modern warfare is being accurately put across as technologically equipped to ensure "laser" precision targetting (by means of drones for example), how is it that we are continuously being presented by "balanced broadcasting" with the two sides as equally to blame?

It's impossible not to conclude that we are being lied to.

It's time for Barack to stand on Bibi's toes and press down hard.They've been vile to the hapless but good-hearted Kerry so Barack's got the upper hand - use it, Mr President. Time to take the diplomatic gloves off!

[amateur51]

Mehdi Hasan debunks eleven Israeli myths about Gaza, Hamas etc.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/gaza-israel_b_5624401.html

Jon Snow, a hugely experienced foreighn correspondent and C4 News anchor, makes an emotionally harrowing film about the children of Gaza

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/jon-snow-gaza-video-watch-the-channel-4-news-presenters-heartbreaking-plea-to-end-child-violence-9632434.html

And the heat is turned up under Tony Blair as Middle East peace envoy for the Quartet

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/23/tony-blair-middle-east-envoy-quartet-sacked

[Serial_Apologist]

Moat depressing of all was the mealy-mouthed Hammond on Today this morning characterising Humphrys, asking if Israel's responses to Hamas's rockets were disproportionate, as "emotive". Let's all relax and calmly meditate on the differences between one and one hundred. That way, no one gets hurt.

[ahinton]

Moat depressing of all was the mealy-mouthed Hammond on Today this morning characterising Humphrys, asking if Israel's responses to Hamas's rockets were disproportionate, as "emotive". Let's all relax and calmly meditate on the differences between one and one hundred. That way, no one gets hurt.

That was the one significant and dismaying gaffe in what otherwise came across as a relatively pragmatic (if also predictably mealy-mouthed, as you say) series of responses although, having said that, had Hammond (of whom I'm no fan at all, incidentally) let some defences down and been more forthright, do you not think that he'd have likely gotten himself into considerably more trouble with someone/s or other/s, regardless of how he might have done it?

[MrGongGong]

Moat depressing of all was the mealy-mouthed Hammond on Today this morning characterising Humphrys, asking if Israel's responses to Hamas's rockets were disproportionate, as "emotive". Let's all relax and calmly meditate on the differences between one and one hundred. That way, no one gets hurt.

Of course it's F**** emotive
these "people" think they can bomb children and hospitals with the approval of the UK Government

Naomi Wolf: "I can't stand this. 19 dead, children and little people, ninety injured -- Israel was told MULTIPLE TIMES BY THE UN exact coordinates and they SHELLED THEM ANYWAY. Hello world? World? When you watch documentaries about the growing storm of the Holocaust the thing you feel as a Jew is outrage and disbelief that the world knew about this and did nothing -- that no one would step in to help -- that no one intervened.

[Serial_Apologist]

Of course it's F**** emotive
these "people" think they can bomb children and hospitals with the approval of the UK Government

Naomi Wolf could have gone on to ask, "Is this my people's way of getting its own back for those years of non-recognition?" One has to be careful of falling into anti-semitism, but it is being said that 80% of the Israelis polled think the army should carry on with what it's doing, and people wonder at Hamas treating Israels as if collectively complicit?. I believe some sort of rally is taking place in Tel Aviv today to call on the army to carry on screwing its courage to the sticking point, to misappropriate Lady Macbeth, or not.

[jean]

One has to be careful of falling into anti-semitism...

One does indeed. Stop it now.

[Serial_Apologist]

One does indeed. Stop it now.

I would first need persuading that being anti-Zionist makes me an anti-semite.

[MrGongGong]

I would first need persuading that being anti-Zionist makes me an anti-semite.

IT DOESN'T

That is the line that some very nasty people want us all to believe

It's maybe important to also remember that Zionism is a classic case of terrorism achieving its goals (but we aren't supposed to mention that at all)