Government reshuffle

[MrGongGong]

When Richard wrote 'while the "medication" on offer from homeopaths may consist of nothing, the diagnostic techniques are IMO some way in advance of what you get in a few hasty minutes at the GP.' He was advocating, I think, what is generally thought of as being a more 'holistic' approach. Your experience may have given you trust in the NHS, and I support the NHS wholeheartedly. But a holistic approach might have been more valuable to 'a friend of mine' than being prescribed a very expensive, effective drug which carried a risk of very serious side effects.

The issues aren't as simple as you make out.

I certainly don't think the issues are simple at all
BUT
What we need IS indeed a more "holistic" approach, more time, more communication
but NOT people we should be able to trust giving out snake oil.

I'm more than aware that many peoples experience of serious medical conditions are very different to mine but that's no reason to abandon reason.

[aeolium]

Yes, few would argue against a more holistic approach from GPs and more time for patient diagnosis (though that would mean even more pressure on a system already under severe pressure). But the case against homeopathy within the NHS, and powerful people in government supporting it, is that it is encouraging a waste of resources on medical treatments for which there is no evidence of any beneficial effect. Here is the NHS's own verdict on homeopathy. It says "there is no good-quality evidence that homeopathy is effective as a treatment for any health condition." It also says that after the diagnosis of the patient by the homeopath, the treatment will most often "take the form of homeopathic remedies given as a pill, capsule or tincture". These are nothing more than placebos. I have known two close relatives who have been treated - with chemotherapy - for cancer and I'm fairly sure both would have died, and pretty quickly, if they had relied on drinking water (or pill substitutes) for their treatment. It is surprising to me that seemingly rational people can defend the peddling of false remedies to the sick (and 240 MPs signed that 2007 Early Day Motion supporting homeopathy on the NHS).

[french frank]

encouraging a waste of resources on medical treatments for which there is no evidence of any beneficial effect.

Persuasive.

But is there, btw, any similar research on resources wasted on standard NHS treatments that have worse than 'no beneficial effect' but which actually have a highly deleterious effect, apparently unforeseen by professionals, and where the patient would have been better off with coloured water?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Okay, if you want to dismiss homeopathy as only fit for the rubbish heap, then that's a choice.

But how do you feel about nature cure, which is essentially how most illnesses and ailments are cured anyway? I had a complaint that developed rapidly when I was 19, and conventional medics said nothing could be done. In desperation, I looked for possible answers and became interested in nature cure, via an alternative diet and water treatment. Progress was slow, but the results were positive enough to merit patience. It was many years before I could claim to be "cured" but the experience taught me not to dismiss things widely thought to be for crackpots.

[amateur51]

I have used two sorts of complementary medicine with some success, osteopathy and acupuncture.

In my experience osteopathy has proved extremely effective in treating musculo-skeletal disorders, often as the result of careless lifting & carrying of heavy objects (during moving house). Practioners have been careful and very gentle when applying pressdure & twisting movemnts and I would recommend them to friends with similar injuries.

Acupuncture may be a more difficult one to 'crack' initially. Most of my experience has been with Western-trained practitioners but the most remarkable diagnosis came about with a Chinese-trained acupuncturist. I went to see her because I was in the middle of a very stressful period of a secondment. My stomach was very upset, I was highly stressed and not sleeping well. and previous treatment for stress-related illness had proved effective. On this occasion the practitioner examined the (eight?) pulses in my wrist, and then examined my tongue and smelled my breath.

She reported that I had lower back weakness - well, I thought, 90% of the people who attend your clinic have that, not impressed. Secondly, she reported that I had weak spleen function - well how would I know? Not impressed. And finally she said "and we'll see what we can do about that ringing in your ears". I was agog - I've had tinnitus since about aged 4-5 but how could she possibly know that? I felt it might be worthwhile having a few sessions!

[amateur51]

Oh dear what can the matter be,
The new Chief Whip got stuck in the lavatory ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28341980

[MrGongGong]

Okay, if you want to dismiss homeopathy as only fit for the rubbish heap, then that's a choice.

But how do you feel about nature cure, which is essentially how most illnesses and ailments are cured anyway? I had a complaint that developed rapidly when I was 19, and conventional medics said nothing could be done. In desperation, I looked for possible answers and became interested in nature cure, via an alternative diet and water treatment. Progress was slow, but the results were positive enough to merit patience. It was many years before I could claim to be "cured" but the experience taught me not to dismiss things widely thought to be for crackpots.

Homeopathy is a fraud, it doesn't work.
The body is extraordinarily able to mend itself when given the chance
call it "nature cure" or whatever

The late great John Stevens once said to me that if you wanted to experience the world afresh you should shave your head a buy a new pair of shoes. Change the top and bottom and you will feel different in the middle.

[MrGongGong]

Oh dear what can the matter be,
The new Chief Whip got stuck in the lavatory ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28341980

I've changed my mind
Prayer can be a powerful force
Thank you God

Now come back Scotty I want to join ! :laugh:

[teamsaint]

It's not ALL based on "belief" as you put it.


There's the small matter of EVIDENCE , you know evidence based things
to use bad examples of so called "conventional medicine" as justification for the lucky rabbits foot approach is disingenuous
There is much wrong with the drugs industry (largely as a result of the way in which capitalism works) but the false dichotomy is not helpful at all.

There are good doctors and bad ones
we should try and make sure that there are more good ones NOT decide to trust the sky fairy instead

Giving charlatans credibility doesn't hep people who are genuinely ill

BUT back in the reshuffle
It seems that we have this

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...d-green-energy

Actually it is all based on belief. You have to believe in the evidence or not. You have to believe in homeopathy or not. You have to choose whether to believe that research is credible or not.You have to choose whether to believe your doctor's diagnosis and the treatment they recommend or not.And so on and so on.
There are very powerful belief systems at work here on all sides, all the time.


Incidentally, I didn't use an example of bad conventional medicine as a justification for using homeopathy. I was pointing out that the benefits and negative effects of various types of treatment are not always very clear. Rather different to justifying.

[MrGongGong]

Nice to see existentialism returning (takes me back)
actually you don't exist either....

There are powerful belief systems indeed....
and all the more important that we don't allow people with very dodgy and dangerous ones to be in charge of important things.
Would you fly on an aeroplane piloted by someone who didn't believe in aerodynamics ?

[teamsaint]

Nice to see existentialism returning (takes me back)
actually you don't exist either....

There are powerful belief systems indeed....
and all the more important that we don't allow people with very dodgy and dangerous ones to be in charge of important things.
Would you fly on an aeroplane piloted by someone who didn't believe in aerodynamics ?

Do you mean like those schools in Birmingham?

[MrGongGong]

Do you mean like those schools in Birmingham?

If we had any sense we would make all education secular
having worked in some of those schools in Birmingham they seem no more extremist than many of the CofE or RC ones i've been to.

[P. G. Tipps]

Oh dear what can the matter be,
The new Chief Whip got stuck in the lavatory ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28341980

One does wonder how Angela Eagle seemed to know so much about Mr Gove's apparent and very private distress ... ?

Rumours may well circulate in both lobbies ... <winkeye>

[teamsaint]

If we had any sense we would make all education secular
having worked in some of those schools in Birmingham they seem no more extremist than many of the CofE or RC ones i've been to.

But even so, it was suggested by some people that those on the governing bodies had dangerous and dodgy beliefs. Many people also think this about ofsted.

Some people might draw a similar conclusions to yours (about C of E /RC schools,) re homeopathy and the NHS, ie that it is no worse (and actually may be more effective) than some of the conventional medicine used.

[MrGongGong]

Some people might draw a similar conclusions to yours (about C of E /RC schools,) re homeopathy and the NHS, ie that it is no worse (and actually may be more effective) than some of the conventional medicine used.

Some people might
Some people believe all sorts of nonsense
which is fine as far as it goes and it's up to them
but it's very dangerous to tacitly endorse charlatans and to pay for them using money that could be used to improve things