Is capitalism really such a good system?

[P. G. Tipps]

Of course there is - human society has changes radically so many times in the last ten millennia, I don't see what reason there is to think that's come to an end. My hunch is that advancing ecological destruction will force some kind of change.

Your initial apparent "certainty" swiftly peters out to a simple 'hunch' ...

Oh, if only someone could come up with a much better system than capitalism we'd all give it our enthusiastic, never-dying support? Of course we all would!

Trouble is that, so far, nobody has ...

[teamsaint]

Your initial apparent "certainty" swiftly peters out to a simple 'hunch' ...

Oh, if only someone could come up with a much better system than capitalism we'd all give it our enthusiastic, never-dying support? Of course we all would!

Trouble is that, so far, nobody has ...

that isn't really a certainty either.
Just that any better system hasn't been allowed to flourish by those with interests? or is lost in the mists of time....or......

[Flosshilde]

No, the trouble is that capitalism has become so powerful (governments it its pockets, etc) that alternative systems are squashed before they have a chance ot develop.

(pipped at the post by teamsaint :smiley:)

[P. G. Tipps]

What 'better systems' do members have in mind that have been 'quashed before they have a chance to develop' or have not spectacularly failed following social revolution ... ?

[Serial_Apologist]

What 'better systems' do members have in mind that have been 'quashed before they have a chance to develop' or have not spectacularly failed following social revolution ... ?

3 for starters:

The Spartacist movement in Germany in 1919, quashed by the Freikorps (predecessors of the Brownshirts) with leaders Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxembourg murdered.

The Dubcek government in Czechoslovakia, offering a liberalised form of Communism, crushed by Russian tanks in 1968

The left-reformist Salvador Allende government in Chile, crushed by its army under General Pinochet in 1974 following heavy CIA-aided destabilisation.

Czechoslovakia 1968 probably offered the best opportunity of evolving into a workers' democracy, but aside from possibly triggering nuclear war the West would never have come in in support of a democratised form of Communism, while Chile has been offered as exemplifying a mistaken belief that socialism can be won constitutionally and peacefully. I don't have to list the means the ruling class has and always will use to defuse and crush any move towards their own decommissioning.

We still have Cuba which, for all its deformations probably survives because of strong cultural underpinnings, the country not having inherited the puritanism specific to other revolutionary or post-revolutionary movements, though gays will strongly disagree with that statement.

[Richard Barrett]

Your initial apparent "certainty" swiftly peters out to a simple 'hunch' ...

Well of course it does... I am certain that society has changed rather fundamentally several times in the past; I have a hunch that the next change will be in response to capitalism's despoliation of the planet. As for "better systems", it was only in the 19th century that anyone even conceived of a post-religious cooperative society of equals, which seems to me self-evidently a far superior kind of society to the one we live in now, and a means (self-emancipation of the working classes) by which it might be brought about. The transition between feudal and capitalist societies took a very long time even though it involved "revolutions" of various kinds in various places.

[P. G. Tipps]

Well of course it does... I am certain that society has changed rather fundamentally several times in the past;

So am I. Like you, I am absolutely certain of that!

However, in the economically-developed world it all started with capitalism and it is with capitalism we are still very much stuck ...

I'm simply asking members what alternative economic system would they suggest that hasn't already been tried (and ultimately failed) that might improve the general lot of humanity?

Even the modern rulers of 'Communist' China, and increasingly Cuba, seem to have decided that maybe capitalism is not that bad a system after all. At least in practice, if not officially!

Nothing like the dreamy prospect of increased personal wealth (however small) to get those lazy comrades toiling away, eh ... ?!

[Flosshilde]

We still have Cuba which, for all its deformations probably survives because of strong cultural underpinnings, the country not having inherited the puritanism specific to other revolutionary or post-revolutionary movements, though gays will strongly disagree with that statement.

The position of LGBT people in Cuba has improved considerably in the past 20 years (but still not perfect - where is? It's better than some USA states). Cuba is probably currently the best example of a non-capitalist 'system', & probably would be better if the USA wasn't so aggressively opposed & doing its best to destroy it.

[waldo]

The position of LGBT people in Cuba has improved considerably in the past 20 years (but still not perfect - where is? It's better than some USA states). Cuba is probably currently the best example of a non-capitalist 'system', & probably would be better if the USA wasn't so aggressively opposed & doing its best to destroy it.

I am not sure Cuba is much of an alternative. Until fairly recently, it was a standard "command" style economy with all the appalling problems that brings with it (massive shortages, widespread corruption, chronic inefficiency etc). Now it is quite clearly moving towards capitalism in a fairly straightforward manner. The government still controls the major industries (like the UK in the 60s, say), but otherwise, the market is taking care of everything else.

Apart from that, of course, Cuba is a totalitarian dictatorship. People don't get to vote in meaningful elections or read a free press or say what they think and they are subject to arbitrary arrest, torture and imprisonment by government officials.

[Richard Barrett]

I'm simply asking members what alternative economic system would they suggest that hasn't already been tried (and ultimately failed) that might improve the general lot of humanity?

Presumably what lies behind this question is that you think socialism has been tried and failed. I don't agree. I think that's a bit like saying at the Restoration that republicanism had been tried and failed.

[Serial_Apologist]

Presumably what lies behind this question is that you think socialism has been tried and failed. I don't agree. I think that's a bit like saying at the Restoration that republicanism had been tried and failed.

I remember, we were outside Parliament on some lobby or other, many years ago, when Tony Benn came out to lend us his encouragement. A woman came up to him and said, "Excuse me, Mr Benn, but your socialism's been around for 200 years, and it hasn't worked, has it??" To which he replied, "Well, Madam, your Christianity has been around for 2000 years, and that hasn't exactly worked either, has it??".

[vinteuil]

I remember, we were outside Parliament on some lobby or other, many years ago, when Tony Benn came out to lend us his encouragement. A woman came up to him and said, "Excuse me, Mr Benn, but your socialism's been around for 200 years, and it hasn't worked, has it??" To which he replied, "Well, Madam, your Christianity has been around for 2000 years, and that hasn't exactly worked either, has it??".

... it seems to me that Viscount Stansgate's riposte does not really help his cause. His socialism requires a change in mind-set; he indicates that the change in mind-set required by the founder of Christianity is still hard to see 2000 years later. Et alors? ...

[Serial_Apologist]

... it seems to me that Viscount Stansgate's riposte does not really help his cause. His socialism requires a change in mind-set; he indicates that the change in mind-set required by the founder of Christianity is still hard to see 2000 years later. Et alors? ...

In the mists of the past, I can't now be sure whether or not his ex-Lordship emphasised "your". Be that as may be (or not) the change of mind-set would not need to be a Christian one, I don't think, though there have some who profess to be Christians while not believing in its central tenets: Tony Benn and Ralph Vaughan Williams among them. Although I wouild never advocate the burning down of churches, I rather think Christianity, like most religions, by definition, (but for reasons specific to each), stands in the way of change.

[ahinton]

In the mists of the past, I can't now be sure whether or not his ex-Lordship emphasised "your". Be that as may be (or not) the change of mind-set would not need to be a Christian one, I don't think, though there have some who profess to be Christians while not believing in its central tenets: Tony Benn and Ralph Vaughan Williams among them. Although I wouild never advocate the burning down of churches, I rather think Christianity, like most religions, by definition, (but for reasons specific to each), stands in the way of change.

I'm more or less as unsure that Christianty per se stands in the way of change as I am that certain Christians do indeed do so!

[Serial_Apologist]

I'm more or less as unsure that Christianty per se stands in the way of change as I am that certain Christians do indeed do so!

While it seems that...

The rich man in his castle
The poor man at his gate
God made them high and lowly
And ordered their estate...

is apparently no more included in versions of the 1848 hymn, one nevertheless remembers that it was composed at the height of the era many Tories today regard as having made Britain "great". Sure there were philanthropists among church people, but Britain's wealth during the Victorian age was made off the backs of the Empire, and without that plus a great deal of what passed in the minds of the official churches then (and would still today) as politically extremist-motivated working class militancy to better living and working conditions, concessions would never have been granted, and revolution would have taken place, as widely happened across Europe.