Scotland to charge for plastic bags

[jean]

...I also happen to think that this issue has a lot to do with easing of consciences.

Of course you do.

That way, you can ease your own conscience even as you continue to wallow in plastic bags.

[Serial_Apologist]

Blimey S_A - I had to look ultimatistic up, but I only found ultimatism which is a radical Bolshevik policy demanding that an ultimatum be sent to Bolshevik deputies of the duma, instructing them to be uncompromisingly radical. !! :-/ Is that what you mean?

Well that's a new one on me too, Anna!!! All or nothing was what I meant by ultimatistic, which seemed like the right word. Can one say "all or nothingism?" There probably is a better word. Some people - and I gathered teamsaint was being assumed, wrongly in my view, to be one - see class struggle as necessarily fought within certain clearly demarcated boundaries: thus the position of the SWP as I remember it was always that elections are (for example) a diversion because bourgeois power is concentrated at the point of production, and that is where the battle has to be concentrated, all other consequences, such as seizure of power at state level, being seen as strategically secondary and hingeing upon this. I can elucidate this further if one likes, but to do so would be further still off topic, and maybe more appropriate to the Politics of the Left thread. Suffice it to say for now that such a p.o.v. would likewise characterise environmental issues, as in some way leeching vital energies away from where the war with capital is most decisively determined in the first instance, which is at the point of production, because the sorting out of the environment, (of which the issue of plastic bags is a part, ahinton), is sustainably unachievable under capitalism.

[Serial_Apologist]

I would not, of course, presume to speak for S_A on this (or indeed anything else) but, if it is what he meant, my grasp of the connection between it and the bag charging policies of Scotland (which is not, as far as I know, run by Bolsheviks at present and is not even likely to be so should the Salmonds swim upstream later this year) is even less than it was previously!

Huge grin & thumbs-up emoticons

[Anna]

Thanks for explanation S_A, who could have thought plastic bags could be central to the class struggle!
:-) No, I'm only teasing and think I'll just reiterate that it's a good thing, easy to do, and is one small step - and I don't see what the fuss is about.

[french frank]

I was just intrigued to see why this current affair had attracted so many replies. Didn't think of it as being politickall !

[Serial_Apologist]

Thanks for explanation S_A, who could have thought plastic bags could be central to the class struggle!
:-) No, I'm only teasing and think I'll just reiterate that it's a good thing, easy to do, and is one small step - and I don't see what the fuss is about.

"Plastic bags give all the room you need to manoeuvre - forward to the dictatorship of the proletariat!" <big grin>

Reminds me of the Civil Defense sketch in Beyond the Fringe:

Peter Cook - "Well, what about defense, I hear you ask? Well there's a lot you can do, you know. All you need is a brown paper bag. Pull it on over you like this, rather like a glove; there's nothing like good old brown paper for keeping you safe - you can do anything you like inside your brown paper bag. So that's it: the bomb drops; the dust settles; put on your brown paper bag, and pop round to your local civil defense leader".

Alan Bennett - "And he'll tell you exactly what you can do".

[Serial_Apologist]

I was just intrigued to see why this current affair had attracted so many replies. Didn't think of it as being politickall !

There's bags of politics there!!!

[Dave2002]

Good thing you don't live in Germany, all supermarkets charge for bags there. Everyone is used to it. Same in Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, Spain and Ireland. And Wales even.

So just because people in all those other countries do it we have to be like sheep and follow suit!

Of course plastic bags can be a problem. There are issues about bio-degradability and damage to fish and birds which may manage to get caught up with bags. However, many bags are now much more bio-degradable - some to the extent that they even degrade before intended. We reuse bags to put rubbish in, and hardly any go to waste.

Sorry - I still think that charging for the bags is almost pointless, and will have very little impact on the environment or on CO2 emissions.

Re the "we've got to start somewhere" argument, this is a bit like Tesco's "every little helps" thing. Yes indeed, but as pointed out by David Mackay in his book on power and environmental issues, doing little things gives little rewards - it's the big issues which need to be tackled. We need to tackle big issues first, before then going on to smaller things. Charging for bags is just a distraction.

I do agree about water bottles though - they could have at least a 25p tax added on - which would make the contents even more valuable - though I'd be happier if such a tax was then used for some good purpose. Simply putting the prices up to give shops and supermarkets a greater profit is not the way to go. Each time I go into a restaurant and ask for water I have to remember to add "tap water, please", otherwise we get fleeced.

I'll keep reading through this thread though, to see if anyone comes up with arguments which swing it.

[Dave2002]

When it's introduced into England next year there is a choice - you pay for your bags or you don't.

Is it going to be? I shall write to David Cameron and object. I don't see why we have to have this rammed this down our throats.

Of course, if a particular shop or supermarket wants to charge that's up to them, but making it mandatory is what I really object to.
I'd probably rather see £100 fines for dropping chewing gum on the streets.

[Anna]

Is it going to be? I shall write to David Cameron and object. I don't see why we have to have this rammed this down our throats.

Best of luck with that - if you wish to waste 60p on a stamp. Or you could spend the money on 6 bags for life and not worry about it at all ............... It's going to happen and I really cannot see your objection to reducing pollution, reducing landfill and generally doing just a little bit to help the environment.
Edit: shops and supermarkets do not profit, the money goes to environmental projects in the community (as you will see if you read the thread)

[Flosshilde]

Rather shouty, floss? ..

I thought you might be a bit hard of hearing, as you've been asked the question 3 times & failed to reply.

[ahinton]

Well that's a new one on me too, Anna!!! All or nothing was what I meant by ultimatistic, which seemed like the right word. Can one say "all or nothingism?" There probably is a better word. Some people - and I gathered teamsaint was being assumed, wrongly in my view, to be one - see class struggle as necessarily fought within certain clearly demarcated boundaries: thus the position of the SWP as I remember it was always that elections are (for example) a diversion because bourgeois power is concentrated at the point of production, and that is where the battle has to be concentrated, all other consequences, such as seizure of power at state level, being seen as strategically secondary and hingeing upon this. I can elucidate this further if one likes, but to do so would be further still off topic, and maybe more appropriate to the Politics of the Left thread. Suffice it to say for now that such a p.o.v. would likewise characterise environmental issues, as in some way leeching vital energies away from where the war with capital is most decisively determined in the first instance, which is at the point of production, because the sorting out of the environment, (of which the issue of plastic bags is a part, ahinton), is sustainably unachievable under capitalism.

Why? If funds are to be invested in "sorting out the environment" ("of which the issue of plastic bags" is a very small though not entirely insignificant part and applies only to non-bio-degradable ones in any case), where will they come from? Either from private capital or from taxes paid by individuals and corporations on profits that they make and salaries that they're paid or (preferably) both, so surely funding much-needed environmental improvements is a capitalist issue because it involves the investment of capital?

Do I understsand you nevertheless to believe sustainable environmental improvement of any and all kinds somehow to be inherently incompatible with capitalist practice in any form? - and that no such improvements have ever been implemented as a consequence or even part-consequence of the input of capital investment?

[ahinton]

"Plastic bags give all the room you need to manoeuvre

Most UK governments can do that all too well even without having recourse to plastic bags, biodegradable or otherwise!

[ahinton]

Best of luck with that - if you wish to waste 60p on a stamp.

It's 62p now - but he could always send an email of fax.

Or you could spend the money on 6 bags for life

As I mentioned upthread, you get those free in France and the supermarkets that give them rarely even have plastic bags anyway.

That said, as Dave2002 (I think) has pointed out, the dispensing of non-bio-degradable plastic bags in supermarkets and other retail outlets, whether free of charge or not, is a less important issue as the sometimes absurd amounts of largely unnecessary non-bio-degradable packaging to which some grocery products are subjected by their manufacturers and whose disposal can often be a far larger environmental issue than said plastic bags; in so saying, I'm not suggesting that all such packaging falls into that category or that it's all non-bio-degradable, but there's plenty of it that is nevertheless something of an environmental scourge.

Plastic water bottles may be one culprit, but what would a viable alternative be? Glass ones would make the product vastly more expensive (and perhaps also somewhat more dangerous, especially with 2l and 5l bottles). Even bio-degradable ones still have somehow to be disposed of in their zillions before they're ready to bio-degrade. I happen never to buy water in bottles except when I'm not at home where I have a reverse osmosis unit and a water filter between my mains supply and the water/ice dispenser in the fridge-freezer and, although those devices (and their maintenance) don't come cheap, the amount of water that they can dispense between each maintenance would likewise be pretty expensive if purchased in fridge-compatible bottles of 2l or less that would also take up a fair amount of fridge space, so I'm not sure that, ultimately, it's necessarily a dearer way to get supply of decent chilled drinking water.

[Flosshilde]

Some people - and I gathered teamsaint was being assumed, wrongly in my view, to be one - see class struggle as necessarily fought within certain clearly demarcated boundaries:

If that's a reference to my post in which I referred to an ex friend who was a member of the SWP, I wasn't suggesting that teamsaint was a member of the SWP, or had any views about the class struggle or racism, sexism or homophobia; I was simply using it as an example of the approach to dealing with issues that teamsaint appeared to be advocating. I withdraw entirely any inadvertent suggestion that teamsaint was, is, or ever will be a member of the SWP, & request that he calls off his libel lawyers.