Scotland to charge for plastic bags

[Flosshilde]

You do indeed have to start somewhere. But this is not the place to start.

Why not? Bags are a significant producer of litter, & wasteful consumption.

the place to start is with producers who create products that fail too quickly and are non recyclable. Also,Check out the waste in the average supermarket trolley. 95 % of the waste is not in free plastic bags, its in wrapping on things like grapes, for example.
At the consumer end, I would ban or tax patio heaters much more harshly, deal much more harshly with brand new gas guzzling cars, and so on.

I still don't see how imposing a charge for plastic carrier bags will distract people (or governments) from these - perhaps you could explain?

Do you have a priority list of things to do - once you've ticked on off, you can go on to the next? 'Ah, that's cars dealt with, now I can tackle plastic bags'? You remind me rather of an ex friend who joined the SWP & thought that you shouldn't deal with sexism, racism & homophobia until the class struggle had been won - never, basically.

and makes people feel as though they are contributing, when in fact its a very marginal issue indeed.

Feeling as though you're contributing doesn't seem to stop you from thinking about other issues -

Anyway, i reuse my plastic bags many times, so I can feel like I am doing my bit when I put my lunch in them , and I can also feel content that i haven't put some poor bag manufacturer out of work.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I normally take my own shopping bags. To rely upon the shop providing me with what I have forgotten, free of charge, is a bit of a cheek. Being charged would serve as a reminder for my laziness - and selfishness.

[teamsaint]

It is self evidently distraction. Everybody on here is talking about it !!

Andwith regard to it being an EU initiative, and thus not government distraction, well the EU was a governmental organisation last I looked.

It really is a pity that governments can't find better things to do. With their time and resources.

Incidentally, I also happen to think that this issue has a lot to do with easing of consciences.


As for no good coming from government initiatives....well some very healthy scepticism seems a sensible place to start.

Posted (with some difficulty) from my organic Blackberry.

[Flosshilde]

It is self evidently distraction.

WHY? HOW?

Everybody on here is talking about it !!

and it's prompted (some) discussion about other environmental issues, which weren't being discussed before - so the opposite of a distraction.

[teamsaint]

Rather shouty, floss? And teetering on the personal up thread, frankly..

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Many environmental issues appear trivial in isolation. But I believe they are all important, though all are tickling at the edges while the human race continues to increase in numbers.

[ahinton]

Posted (with some difficulty) from my organic Blackberry.

Is it a Fairtrade organic Blackberry, though?

[Serial_Apologist]

I love this! Please keep it going!

The thing about what is implementable under capitalism is discovered while campaigning on various issues. Gains (eg gay marriage) build up the confidence to go for more. It comes down in the end to what can be sustainably won under capitalism as against what can be only won tenously or temporarily, such as trade union recognition, health and safety at work and equal pay, and understanding why the ruling class is sometimes prepared to cede, which can be in part down to tactical deflecting from other more important issues, and when not.

[ahinton]

I love this! Please keep it going!

The thing about what is implementable under capitalism is discovered while campaigning on various issues. Gains (eg gay marriage) build up the confidence to go for more. It comes down in the end to what can be sustainably won under capitalism as against what can be only won tenously or temporarily, such as trade union recognition, health and safety at work and equal pay, and understanding why the ruling class is sometimes prepared to cede, which can be in part down to tactical deflecting from other more important issues, and when not.

At the risk of appearing to be unduly dense (no change there, then!), I confess to being at something of a loss to figure out the specific connection between the above and Scotland charging customers for plastic bags, if you'll forgive my saying so!

[Anna]

It is self evidently distraction. Everybody on here is talking about it !!

I only started talking about it because Dave, who started the thread, seemed to think it was something entirely new, which it isn't. When it's introduced into England next year there is a choice - you pay for your bags or you don't.

There are of course far more important issues to be addressed but this is one small, painless, step to possibly creating a better environment and reducing landfill with further recycling measures.

(I also don't understand S_A's posting!! Do you mean Socialists wouldn't introduce a charge?)

[Serial_Apologist]

At the risk of appearing to be unduly dense (no change there, then!), I confess to being at something of a loss to figure out the specific connection between the above and Scotland charging customers for plastic bags, if you'll forgive my saying so!

The same charge could equally be levelled at the preceding 5 posts, to which mine was in response.

[ahinton]

The same charge could equally be levelled at the preceding 5 posts, to which mine was in response.

Perhaps so, although mine was clearly intended only as a joke (and a "distraction", if it comes to that!) and it is evident that Anna didn't understand yours either, so it would appear that I am not alone in failing to perceive the firecft relationship between it and the subject - sorry!

[Serial_Apologist]

(I also don't understand S_A's posting!!)

I was only expressing qualified support for the position being taken by teamsaint, as criticised by Flosshilde in his reference to the SWP in #31, wrongly implying that teamsaint was assuming an ultimatistic standpoint in regards to the political achievability of some goals under capitalism.

[Anna]

I was only expressing qualified support for the position being taken by teamsaint, as criticised by Flosshilde in his reference to the SWP in #31, wrongly implying that teamsaint was assuming an ultimatistic standpoint in regards to the political achievability of some goals under capitalism.

Blimey S_A - I had to look ultimatistic up, but I only found ultimatism which is a radical Bolshevik policy demanding that an ultimatum be sent to Bolshevik deputies of the duma, instructing them to be uncompromisingly radical. !! :-/ Is that what you mean?

[ahinton]

Blimey S_A - I had to look ultimatistic up, but I only found ultimatism which is a radical Bolshevik policy demanding that an ultimatum be sent to Bolshevik deputies of the duma, instructing them to be uncompromisingly radical. !! :-/ Is that what you mean?

I would not, of course, presume to speak for S_A on this (or indeed anything else) but, if it is what he meant, my grasp of the connection between it and the bag charging policies of Scotland (which is not, as far as I know, run by Bolsheviks at present and is not even likely to be so should the Salmond swim upstream later this year) is even less than it was previously!