Scotland to charge for plastic bags

[ahinton]

The fact that in Ireland, Wales and Scotland that's exactly what's happened.

I am aware of the figures that have been reported for this but, given the example that I provided above, I wonder to what extent these could be trusted in all instances. Furthermore, to what extent should Waitrose's 5p per £13.86 worth of shopping be relied upon as complying fully with Welsh regulations on this? - or perhaps one should instead ask why the Welsh Assembly let them get away with their own interpretation of it (assuming that they do so)? After all, the way around this would be easy, namely for the supermarket to give the customer an automatic discount equivalent to the bag charge so that the customer effectively doesn't pay it - rather like the 5% of all wine orders of six bottles or more.

[jean]

I am aware of the figures that have been reported for this but, given the example that I provided above, I wonder to what extent these could be trusted in all instances...

What a suspicious lot you are on this thread!

My sister who lives in Wales tells me the reduction in the amount of plastic bag litter is noticable...but she's probably lying.

[ahinton]

We're all hoodwinked from time to time by government propaganda or government prioritising certain issues to divert attention from others, so I think it's a bit unfair to single teamsaint out by expecting him to produce evidence of this being the case: how could that be gathered: vox populi, referenda asking when you last felt hoodwinked or went along with a policy, and do you feel stupid for being duped?? Some will think the government is solving environmental degradation by putting charges on plastic carrier bags, but this is a miniscule part of the rest of the problem, which is only being discussed in repetitive ways at most while fracking gets the presumptive thumbs up as ostensibly a pro tem solution which as we all know will become accepted practice once in. However I am glad to learn from this thread that some plastic carriers are biodegradable - because what else does on bag up ones unrecyclable rubbish in? - while waiting for evidence (hmm) that said biodegradability does not of itself cause pollution.

I don't think there is such a thing as an undistorted market: some can pay more than others, thereby determining prices, and that is where profit is "realised". Were poorer people to be subsidised to keep them spending, that might arguably be described as a market distortion because it would be paid for by taxes on other's incomes or profits, but the thing is that poorer person paying for some product out of a subsidised income would keep someone else in a job. In Taiwan, perhaps. So, what does one really mean, by "market distortion"?

In one sense, all markets have built-in "distortion" - that's the nature of the beast - but whether one calls these things "markets" or whether one tries to find other names and other systems to describe how transactions between parties take place (even if no money is involved), such "distortion" potential remains endemic. Taxation itself (since you mention it) is a market, albeit one in which the rôles of customers and suppliers are reversed (the cutomer being the taxpayer and the supplier being the revenue collection authority who provides the tax collecting "service" to the customer) and, like other suppliers, tax collecting authorities (at least in most "developed" countries) have customer service and complaince standards and guidelines (even if, like other suppliers, they don't always adhere to them). I don't think that there could be any way around this, within a capitalist or a non-capitalist system, because values (monetary or otherwise) have to be placed upon all traded goods and services and that's why "distortions" will inevitably occur as there will never be universal local, national or international agreement as to the those values. So, to that extent, I agree with you that there is no such thing as an "undistorted market" while at the same time adccepting that this situation cannot change under any economic system.

[ahinton]

What a suspicious lot you are on this thread!

My sister who lives in Wales tells me the reduction in the amount of plastic bag litter is noticable...but she's probably lying.

I didn't suggest that the published statistics cannot be trusted; I merely opened up the issue as to whether they accord to reasonable expectations and, if they seem to depart from them sufficiently, their trustworthiness might not unreasonably be called into question. Does the example that I provided, for example, strike you as according to those statistics?

[Anna]

Not quite sure why UKIP came into this !!!

Because UKIP, in their 2014 local election manifesto said they would ignore the EU Landfill/Waste Directive, restore weekly bin collections and send it all to landfill thereby ensuring lower Council Tax for one and all. Although, I don't think they hold the balance of power on any Councils but they are intending to undo all the good work that has been done before (the fact that they are totally deluded doesn't mean they are not a real threat)

I wonder to what extent these could be trusted in all instances. Furthermore, to what extent should Waitrose's 5p per £13.86 worth of shopping be relied upon as complying fully with Welsh regulations on this? - or perhaps one should instead ask why the Welsh Assembly let them get away with their own interpretation of it .

Oh Dear, don't obscure matters! All online retailers in Wales have to charge something for bagged delivery, the amount varies. Asda charge 35p however much you spend (or however little, the minimum spend of £25 still means 35p in bag levy) It complicates matters too much to count each bag per delivery, but please write to the Welsh Assembly if it worries you. :-)

[jean]

Your first objection to this measure was this:

This measure doesnt even make sense within its own retail arena, where there is untold waste and polluting material everywhere.

I understood from that that you would be in favour of dealing with the untold waste and polluting material.

But now you're talking about market distortion instead. Are you sure that there are no market-distorting implications to the untold waste and polluting material?

[teamsaint]

The somewhat throwaway comment about market distortions really wasn't that important.
I couldn't say about distortions in the packaging market. Perhaps you can enlighten us?
Perhaps it would be more use if we concentrated our discussion around the vast amount of waste that you refer to, of which plastic bags account for a quarter of 1 per cent.

[ahinton]

Because UKIP, in their 2014 local election manifesto said they would ignore the EU Landfill/Waste Directive, restore weekly bin collections and send it all to landfill thereby ensuring lower Council Tax for one and all. Although, I don't think they hold the balance of power on any Councils but they are intending to undo all the good work that has been done before (the fact that they are totally deluded doesn't mean they are not a real threat)



Oh Dear, don't obscure matters! All online retailers in Wales have to charge something for bagged delivery, the amount varies. Asda charge 35p however much you spend (or however little, the minimum spend of £25 still means 35p in bag levy) It complicates matters too much to count each bag per delivery, but please write to the Welsh Assembly if it worries you. :-)

It doesn't. I don't live in Wales anyway (well, not as it is currently constituted, anyway, although you will doubtless argue that, historically, I do!) and I wouldn't write to them anyway as I can't write in Welsh!

That said, as I mentioned, there are ways around this rule and, whilst I can applaud it in principle, the material difference that it might make in the overall environmental picture is a very small one but, in any case, the French seem to have a better and more efficient way of addressing it by simply not providing plastic carrier bags at all but instead providing free of charge the kinds of "bag for life" that are of better quality than most that are sold here for small sums - I have several of these and they've lasted very well.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It doesn't. I don't live in Wales anyway (well, not as it is currently constituted, anyway, although you will doubtless argue that, historically, I do!) and I wouldn't write to them anyway as I can't write in Welsh!

They do, of course, speak far better English in Wales than they do in this part of Yorkshire.

The answer to the bag problem is surely not to provide them at all. Tesco sells canvas shopping bags that that last for years.

[french frank]

The answer to the bag problem is surely not to provide them at all. Tesco sells canvas shopping bags that that last for years.

Most supermarkets sell 'Bags for Life'. But not providing plastic bags means people 'have' to buy more expensive bags, as they will come out without a bag whether they have one at home or not. That's why the shops have the giveaway bags in the first place.

Environmentalism among the general public doesn't go very deep. They don't want to be seriously inconvenienced. I doubt you can get away with much more than 5p for a carrier bag without there being a major protest. Instead of a bedroom tax, how about taxing spare seats in cars - for every journey?

[teamsaint]

Most supermarkets sell 'Bags for Life'. But not providing plastic bags means people 'have' to buy more expensive bags, as they will come out without a bag whether they have one at home or not. That's why the shops have the giveaway bags in the first place.

Environmentalism among the general public doesn't go very deep. They don't want to be seriously inconvenienced. I doubt you can get away with much more than 5p for a carrier bag without there being a major protest. Instead of a bedroom tax, how about taxing spare seats in cars - for every journey?

My local sports car dealer thinks this is a great idea too. Boyracersmileything.

I wonder what would make environmentalism among the public go deeper, if that is the problem?
Perhaps they are already fed up of much of the inconvenience of modern life that is imposed by big corporations, and take their lead from them ?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Instead of a bedroom tax, how about taxing spare seats in cars - for every journey?

My initial reaction is to support this idea, but it means that the wealthy will be able to continue being antisocial (as they do now with their largely unnecessary 4x4s for the school run) while the less well-off will feel the pinch.

[MrGongGong]

Instead of a bedroom tax, how about taxing spare seats in cars - for every journey?

Does an instrument on the seat count ?

Hang on a moment
that would mean that someone in a Ferrari would pay less than me going to a gig with a car full of gear in a 13 year old volvo ?

[french frank]

I am working on a formula which takes into consideration: age of car, petrol consumption and performance, no of available seats, size of engine, availability of local public transport, seat covering, tinted glass ... :-)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

that would mean that someone in a Ferrari would pay less than me going to a gig with a car full of gear in a 13 year old volvo ?

OMG MrGG is a VOLVO DRIVER.

But you do have a point.