Scotland to charge for plastic bags

[Anna]

Sorry in advance for the wordiness.

Firstly, just to repeat what I said before. This is not some jolly wheeze dreamed up by the Coalition as a distraction but an EU directive which all member states’ MEPs have voted on, and all agreed to implement. Unfortunately England have been dragging their feet, as Government discussions started in 2010, then delayed until a Report was available in 2011. In the meantime Wales & N. Ireland had gone ahead, passing their proposals for waste reduction in 2010 and implementing a carrier bag charge in 2011.

The following is taken from Parliament.uk’s site and is part of a Report on plastic bags and the environment.

1. In September 2013 the Deputy Prime Minister announced plans to introduce a mandatory five pence charge for single-use plastic carrier bags in England from Autumn 2015. The provision for such a charge had been included in the Climate Change Act 2008. Wales and Northern Ireland have already introduced a charge on single-use bags, and Scotland plans to introduce a charge in 2014. The Republic of Ireland introduced a charge in 2002.

2. In November 2013 the Government launched a consultation on the proposals. The Government has indicated that it will not replicate the Welsh scheme, which has reduced bag use by 76% , but intends instead to introduce a series of exemptions beyond those applied in Wales. The consultation stated that "some decisions have already been made, such as the size of the charge (5p) and what it applies to (single-use plastic bags)" and that it will "not include re-usable bags for life or paper bags. Nor will it apply to organisations with fewer than 250 employees".

As you can see England is making it unnecessary complicated, hence why it’s not been introduced before, plus Conservative MEPs tried to ‘water it down’ However, reluctant as some of them may still be, it has to be implemented. I’m assuming it hasn’t been widely publicised in England is because it’s probably seen as an unpopular move and, given the anti-Europe feeling at the moment it’ll be more ammunition for the anti-recycling Kippers.

[mercia]

haven't read every post - isn't plastic an oil-based material ? so when people speak of 'bio-degradeable plastic bags' is that not putting oil into the ground (and water table) ?

[I made two faux pas with my first visit to an Aldi this week. Didn't take my own bags, and thought I could pay by credit card :blush:]

[teamsaint]

Just challenging your 'green credentials'. You seem to be saying that charging for plastic carrier bags is a waste of time when there are more important things to be worried about, and therefore shouldn't be done. You seem to think that to do so is a con by governments, designed to distract attention and make people feel good about 'doing something' and lertting them off the hook of doing something about the more important environmental issues.

You've failed to demonstrate that people are distracted (despite being asked to by Jean and me), and also appear to claim that you haven't fallen for the governments' dastardly tricks, and you use your plastic shopping bags for other things, and you are more concerned about the important things (but still use a mobile phone, the environmental impact of which is quite considerable) & not trivial stuff like plastic bags.

You just sound very smug and self-satisfied, and as if you feel rather superior to those of us who can't raise our sights above the trivial issues.


If you think that's agressive, then .

I'd say the same to you if you were sitting opposite me.

You should read what I write, not what you think I write.
I haven't trumpeted my green credentials anywhere, (and I don't claim to have any) other than to say that I was bothered to get involved in this debate.

The" smugness" is in your mind. I just happen to think that this is a policy (and remember it still isn't implemented)borne of rather less than pure motives, while other issues, go on the back burner. Governments use distraction all the time. I wish this one would concentrate in getting better green energy supplies, and stop handing out fracking licenses to their friends, (Lord John Brown, for example). That is the kind of issue that I feel gets too little attention, while you and i discuss the fate of biodegradable bags.
I wasn't at any point suggesting that it was dishonourable to be distracted by a very powerful government machine. It happens to all of us.

I really wish you would keep the personal stuff out of it.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Spot on
once we have a UKIP government we can start sending children to work in factories again :wink:
all this red tape that is hindering business really has to go ...........

Gove would love that. Don't put ideas into his head.

[teamsaint]

Not quite sure why UKIP came into this !!!

Market distortions, EG in the energy market, tend, I suspect, to act in the interests of those with power and financial big players.

[MrGongGong]

Not quite sure why UKIP came into this !!!

Market distortions, EG in the energy market, tend, I suspect, to act in the interests of those with power and financial big players.

Surely we need to work towards the end of the "energy market" anyway ?
Some folks want to eliminate ALL barriers to making money seeing them as "market distortions" and acting ethically is just more nonsense that needs to be got rid of
I really fail to see what the problem is ?
There is too much plastic
Plastic bags can be used again and again
Let's try and encourage folks to stop littering the country with discarded bags
appealing to people's "better nature" doesn't work
Make plastic bags more expensive than reusing an existing one

= fewer bags , less litter, less oil used and so on

10 minute decision

next item

Bottled Water.......

[teamsaint]

A market distortion is a market distortion. Some people, such as big energy companies LIKE (some of) them, because distortions help them make more money.
Things that distort markets need very careful scrutiny, IMO.

(This case is probably pretty insignificant, unless perhaps one is in the bags business).



back to bags,thanks to Anna for pointing out the origins of this policy.

[jean]

A market distortion is a market distortion.

I'm sorry, but that's not a very illuminating statement.

[jean]

Not quite sure why UKIP came into this !!!

Since it's an EU directive we're talking about, they were bound to make an appearance sooner or later.

[teamsaint]

I'm sorry, but that's not a very illuminating statement.

That is because you have split it from the rest of the post.

If you read the rest of the post, it makes more sense.
The bit you quoted was for emphasis.

back to UKIP, Gongers has , inadvertantly I'm sure, linked me with UKIP.

I have nothing to do with them whatsoever.

Jean, I hope you have read my previous post, which tries to defuse the things that you took great exception to. My beef in all this is the motivation behind the policy, not the willingness of the people to go along with it.

[ahinton]

What makes anyone think that charging for carrier bags will deter most or all customers from using them?

Here's an extract from Waitrose's piece about the Welsh carrier bag charge:

If you do not have your own bags, you will be offered the choice of a Bag for Life that costs 10p or a single use carrier bag at 5p.

Shop in Branch, We Deliver

At the checkout, you can choose to have your shopping delivered bagless, in your own carrier bags or you can purchase Waitrose carrier bags at the checkout.

If you choose bagless, your delivery will arrive in crates and the driver will take away the crates once the shopping has been unpacked. If you provide your own bags at the checkout then Waitrose will deliver your shopping in these bags.

If you would like to purchase carrier bags at the checkout, cashier will ask you how many bags you require. Waitrose will then charge 5p for each carrier bag requested.

If you would like to reuse your own bags, simply hand them to the cashier who will use them to pack your shopping.

Shop Online, We Deliver
You can choose to have your online order delivered bagless, or in carrier bags.

If you choose bagless, your delivery will arrive in crates, and once unpacked the driver will take away the crates.

If you choose to have your delivery in carrier bags, Waitrose will charge 5p for every £13.86 of shopping ordered*.

Shop Online, You Collect

You can choose to have your collection bagless, or in carrier bags.

If you choose to have a bagless collection, you will need to bring your own carrier bags to the branch. A Waitrose partner will then pack your order into your carrier bags.

If you choose to have your collection already prepared in carrier bags, Waitrose will charge 5p for every £13.86 of shopping ordered*.

* We have developed this charging calculation after conducting research on more than 10,000 Waitrose online orders. Our data shows that an average carrier bag in a Waitrose online order contains £13.86 of shopping and this is the assumption we use to inform us how much to charge for carrier bags for your online order.

(Example: If you order £100 of online shopping we know that typically this will require 7 carrier bags. We will, therefore, charge you 35p which is the equivalent of 7 bags at a cost of 5p each).

So this 5p charge is not always applied literally in any case - and is anyone likely to quibble about being charged 35p for carrier bags for £100 worth of shopping?

[jean]

What makes anyone think that charging for carrier bags will deter most or all customers from using them?

The fact that in Ireland, Wales and Scotland that's exactly what's happened.

[Serial_Apologist]

We're all hoodwinked from time to time by government propaganda or government prioritising certain issues to divert attention from others, so I think it's a bit unfair to single teamsaint out by expecting him to produce evidence of this being the case: how could that be gathered: vox populi, referenda asking when you last felt hoodwinked or went along with a policy, and do you feel stupid for being duped?? Some will think the government is solving environmental degradation by putting charges on plastic carrier bags, but this is a miniscule part of the rest of the problem, which is only being discussed in repetitive ways at most while fracking gets the presumptive thumbs up as ostensibly a pro tem solution which as we all know will become accepted practice once in. However I am glad to learn from this thread that some plastic carriers are biodegradable - because what else does on bag up ones unrecyclable rubbish in? - while waiting for evidence (hmm) that said biodegradability does not of itself cause pollution.

I don't think there is such a thing as an undistorted market: some can pay more than others, thereby determining prices, and that is where profit is "realised". Were poorer people to be subsidised to keep them spending, that might arguably be described as a market distortion because it would be paid for by taxes on other's incomes or profits, but the thing is that poorer person paying for some product out of a subsidised income would keep someone else in a job. In Taiwan, perhaps. So, what does one really mean, by "market distortion"?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Sometimes, focussing on smaller issues can help to raise consciousness for larger ones.

Sometimes people complain that the police focus too much on minor offences instead of "going out and catching criminals"' but I would argue the reverse. If the little things matter, the bigger ones matter more.

[teamsaint]

Market distortions are , I am sure , a tricky area. many, or probably all, markets are rigged, distorted, or otherwise manipulated.
What concerns me is that , since it appears we must have markets, they should be as transparent and fair as possible. Policies which deliberately distort or change markets are to be looked at with suspicion, because of the ability of the unscrupulous to take advantage. But this is all probably for another thread, really.