Scotland to charge for plastic bags

[teamsaint]

Of course you do.

That way, you can ease your own conscience even as you continue to wallow in plastic bags.

My conscience wont be eased or otherwise by the bag issue, because its a non issue. Like most round here I worry about,and try to act on environmental issues in a sensible and practical way. i happen to think this is waste of government time and energy, but that is just a belief, and this fallible.

Try to keep off the personal stuff, Jean. i have been trying to keep this civilised, as you will see in my reply to you up thread.

[Serial_Apologist]

If that's a reference to my post in which I referred to an ex friend who was a member of the SWP, I wasn't suggesting that teamsaint was a member of the SWP, or had any views about the class struggle or racism, sexism or homophobia; I was simply using it as an example of the approach to dealing with issues that teamsaint appeared to be advocating. I withdraw entirely any inadvertent suggestion that teamsaint was, is, or ever will be a member of the SWP, & request that he calls off his libel lawyers.

I had no intention of implying any imputation on your part towards teamsaint of this kind, and apologise for any inadvertent impression to the contrary that I may have created.

[teamsaint]

I thought you might be a bit hard of hearing, as you've been asked the question 3 times & failed to reply.

The distraction thing is surely obvious, as S_A mentions.
Governments use distraction all the time. It is all around us. I happen to think this particular issue distracts from other heavy duty issues, environmental and otherwise.
All the time we argue about bags, something like fracking is lower down the agenda. We can of course deal with more than one thing at a time, but distraction is a successful technique.

Back to bags, will other shops, fashion etc, be subject to the same laws? Much of their packaging,("shall i pop the receipt in the bag for you") is unnecessary too.

Incidentally, any unanswered points were prolly due to the fact that i was conducting the conversation on a mobile, whilst pounding the streets selling stuff in my day job !!!!

[jean]

Try to keep off the personal stuff, Jean...

But you have not succeeded, have you?

You are happy to accuse people who think plastic bags are worth worrying about that they are thereby distractred from more serious issues. You go so far as to tell them that they are easing their consciences by being concerned about so trivial an issue, and using this concern to absolve themselves of mopre serious misdemeanours.

I'm one of the people you're talking about, and I take great exception to your generalisations.

[ahinton]

But you have not succeeded, have you?

You are happy to accuse people who think plastic bags are worth worrying about that they are thereby distractred from more serious issues. You go so far as to tell them that they are easing their consciences by being concerned about so trivial an issue, and using this concern to absolve themselves of mopre serious misdemeanours.

I'm one of the people you're talking about, and I take great exception to your generalisations.

Broadly speaking, I'm with you on that.

It's all a matter of degree; the use of non-bio-degradable plastic bags is an environmental issue, but the extent of its importance as one is at least in part dependent upon how many are used and how often they are used before disposal.

There are plenty of other issues of environmental concern that relate directly to the manner in which and the materials from which many hundreds of thousands of different products are made and how those products are or can be disposed of once their usefulness has expired.

That said, packaging is an essential for most goods, especially when they're being stored and transported (even short distances by hand), so it is important that as much of it as possible is actually necessary for such storage and transportation and is manufactured from bio-degradable materials whenever possible.

[teamsaint]

But you have not succeeded, have you?

You are happy to accuse people who think plastic bags are worth worrying about that they are thereby distractred from more serious issues. You go so far as to tell them that they are easing their consciences by being concerned about so trivial an issue, and using this concern to absolve themselves of mopre serious misdemeanours.

I'm one of the people you're talking about, and I take great exception to your generalisations.

I didnt accuse anybody of easing their consciences, or at least didn't mean to. i was suggesting that the government uses this issue to allow people(and possibly themselves) to have their consciences eased, which I see as rather different.

i haven't attacked anybody, ( i think) except those with power, the government.

If you happen to believe in a government policy that somebody else thinks is a bad policy, that is surely fair game, if done in a polite manner.

What you call generalisations, I would call opinions, which are dangerous things.
I still think it a policy that should be a lot lower down the order of priority, and we do have to have such an order. If you take exception to that, then I am sorry.

If you think this is a good policy, you should be happy enough. personally I think it is illogical, since it wont presumably apply to so many other unnecessary bags, from a myriad other stores. In any case, I happen to think it should be a matter of commercial choice, but again that is just a belief.

I dont think that trying to demonstrate how a policy acts on the population, whether I am right or wrong, is a personal matter. mr Gonggong quite rightly pointed out the distracting nature of sport. i could have taken that personally, but chose not to, as its just his belief, and he no doubt has good reason to hold it.


And finally : for better or worse, I was conducting this mornings discussion on a mobile, whilst walking around a city between business appointments. i did that because I think that environmental issues are important.

[Dave2002]

Best of luck with that - if you wish to waste 60p on a stamp.

I have plenty of first class stamps bought when they were 40p, so no problem. Don't think I won't do it. I have written to several government ministers, prime ministers, MPs, and other relevant people over the years, and maybe get a result 50% of the time.

[Dave2002]

Re biodegradability:

"Plastic" bags have changed over the years. I noticed years ago that bags degrade in sunlight. However, I gather that some earlier bags do not degrade well if they are put into landfill sites, and indeed we do use bags for putting rubbish in. Officially some authorities would rather we just dumped all the rubbish straight into wheelie bins, but that's not over helpful, as then one has smelly wheelie bins which would need cleaning frequently.

My belief is that the latest generation of plastic bags do degrade in land fill, so not a major problem there. Of course I'm not advocating having loads of bags cluttering the place up, but I think used sensibly they are OK. Foam and other types of packaging which are seemingly not recyclable are much more problematic. I do also have a lot of non degradable bags which I use when I remember to take them out with me.

Some of the new "plastic" bags are so degradable, that if something wet is put into them, they will collapse even before being put into the bin or compost heap.

[teamsaint]

Tetrapacks are not recyclable, as far as I know.surely a bigger problem than degradable bags?

Incidentally, does anybody know if the degradeable bags actually degrade safely?

[Serial_Apologist]

Tetrapacks are not recyclable, as far as I know.surely a bigger problem than degradable bags?

Southwark allows ours to be put out for recycling.

Incidentally, does anybody know if the degradeable bags actually degrade safely?

Good question!

[french frank]

Tetrapacks are not recyclable, as far as I know.

Must depend on who collects the recyclables. We have our 27.5 different boxes in different colours - I think the magenta one is for Tetra Paks - which I put out every week. They say:

"In 2013, the global recycling rate of Tetra Pak packages reached 24.5%, with about 43 billion being recycled, 4 billion more than the previous year. "

Incidentally, does anybody know if the degradeable bags actually degrade safely?

What does safely mean? I use corn starch bags for my food caddy and they go into the compost bin. They don't biodegrade as quickly as the other stuff, though. I suppose the cats might choke on them but I'm not too worried about that.

Charging for bags is good because it makes people think about reusing rather than chucking out.

[Richard Tarleton]

I'm bewildered by this thread. I even started a reply earlier, went out for a haircut, came back several pages later.

A simple proposition - that plastic bag consumption, and with it their unique contribution to litter, landfill and wasted resources (oil and gas, basically) can be drastically cut by a small charge - has been amply demonstrated in Wales. The charge benefits good causes, as Anna has pointed out.

There is no need for all this discussion.

Consumption of plastic shopping bags in Wales has plummeted. People use and re-use their "bags for life". What is to object to? Of course there are lots of other recycling issues, but because they're not all being addressed does not mean that none should be. This is one issue that can easily be addressed, to the benefit of all, its success clearly demonstrated in Wales.

"Low-hanging fruit" is the analogy I would suggest. It's easy.

[teamsaint]

Well, you dont have to introduce a charge for one type of bag in one kind of shop, but not in others, to make people think about reusing or recycling,though of course it may help.

And the problem remains, as far as I am concerned. "Solving"" this issue, (which if bags are reused and then degrade safely may not really be a serious issue at all), may well allow governments to look like they are doing something about the environment, while the real catastrophies , (fracking, for instance) face less challenge than they otherwise might, because the government has earned green credentials from the easy bag issue.

For information: tetrapaks currently go to landfill in Wiltshire.

[Anna]

Recycling is not uniform - all Councils are different. Ours were only able to recycle Tetrapacks from about a year ago, they also recycle the foil dishes ready-meals come in, they cannot recyle clingfilm at the moment and polystyrene I don't think anyone can at the mo. I see french frank also has weekly food waste recycling - this is vital when traditional dustbin collections are switched to fortnightly. However, I am amazed at the general resistance there seems to be regarding kitchen waste recycling (the Daily Mail raises this on a regular basis with screaming headlines about 'slop-buckets on our streets' and 'encouraging giant rats' but they would say that!

The choice was: ban bags, tax them, or charge for them. Charging has been very successful but eventually, many years hence, after the target has been met, plastic bags will be banned. Denmark is so far the most environmentally conscious as regards single use bags, the Danes use an average of 4 bags per person per year. Thinking back, what did your Granny put her shopping in? A bag for life of course. :-)

[french frank]

I see french frank also has weekly food waste recycling - this is vital when traditional dustbin collections are switched to fortnightly.

Yes, we're issued with a small caddy which goes under my kitchen sink and a larger one which you empty the caddy into when it's full - and that's the one that's collected weekly. But my caddy waste goes into the compost bin except on the rare occasion when I have a whole chicken - then the bones go into the caddy - when I've made the stock :-) - and I put the caddy out for collection.

We also have a black box for paper and glass, a green box for tins, foil, cardboard, plastic containers, and plastic and metal lids. And the black wheelie bin for the unrecyclables. Our collection day is tomorrow and my wheelie won't go out because it only has one small pedal bin bagful, after a fortnight.

Mind you, some people are really messy. Everything that goes in my wheelie bin is bagged and tied, otherwise the scaffies leave rubbish all over the street.

[Plastic bags go in the Coop's bin for recycling. I think they make fleeces out of them (not the Coop - someone).]