Scotland to charge for plastic bags

[ahinton]

In an ideal world, possibly. But make them free and there will be no incentive for shoppers to remember to bring them, even if they are 'for life'.

Well, that's not my experience in France over quite a few years. Shoppers who forget to bring their bags find themselves with nothing in which to take their shopping to their cars, as no plastic carrier bags are provided by the retailers; that's as effective a way as any to persuade people to bring their free "bags for life" and many of them do just that unless they're only buying a handful of items that can be carried to their cars without any need to put them in anything.

I 'think' there is just as much reason to train the population as a whole as to what damage they can do to the environment.

I agree but, in so doing, it occurs to me that the above example could be regarded as a kind of "training", to the extent of offering free "bags for life" but no environmentally challenged alternative such as plastic carrier bags.

Large companies are better dealt with by some sort of 'polluter pays' taxes

Again, agreed; this would surely encourage more manufacturers of plastic carrier bags to concentrate on making biodegradable ones so as to avoid the tax liability.

Statistics show (apparently - cf Wales) that demand falls off anyway if people have to pay for them. Quod erat faciendum.

That's all very well, but that's not the same as doing away with the bags altogether; again, I don't know the economics of it from the retailers' standpoint, but I imagine that providing free "bags for life" might well be a cheaper option for them than buying squillions of plastic carrier bags.

[Anna]

Certainly in Wales the strict waste controls that are in force do encourage people to think about what they’re throwing away, particularly food waste which all Councils collect weekly. Our Council has a fortnightly general non-recyclable waste collection, limited to a maximum of 2 grey bags per household (they were going to be totally transparent bags but this was altered to semi-transparent grey due to residents raising concerns about privacy) Two Councils are also trialling recycling a weekly collection for absorbent hygiene products – disposable nappies and incontinence products. Gwynedd Council will be changing their non-recyclable general waste collection to every 3 weeks, I can see our Council doing the same as they’ve now (last quarter) hit 63% of all waste recycled.

Back to bags. Yesterday I asked one of the Waitrose cashiers if people did always remember, she said about 76% always did, mainly women. In answer to Dave’s query, the bags are thin, not something you’d wish to spend 5p on making a bag for life (or other sturdier bag) very attractive – so it’s all about changing attitudes as Flossie and jean say.

I think this discussion may be a bit academic. It’s not due to come in force in England until October 2015 and there is an election in May 2015 – who knows who’ll have the keys to No. 10 or who will be in bed with who ………. ??

[MrGongGong]

I think this discussion may be a bit academic. It’s not due to come in force in England until October 2015 and there is an election in May 2015 – who knows who’ll have the keys to No. 10 or who will be in bed with who ………. ??

You are probably right there
If people vote the way they did in the EU elections then we will have folks who want to abolish all legislation that concerns the environmental costs of economic activity. After all it's all a dastardly plot by the illuminati to control our minds and there is no problem at all with so called "climate change" ! (anyone want to buy a lovely house in the Maldives ? )

[ahinton]

Certainly in Wales the strict waste controls that are in force do encourage people to think about what they’re throwing away, particularly food waste which all Councils collect weekly. Our Council has a fortnightly general non-recyclable waste collection, limited to a maximum of 2 grey bags per household (they were going to be totally transparent bags but this was altered to semi-transparent grey due to residents raising concerns about privacy) Two Councils are also trialling recycling a weekly collection for absorbent hygiene products – disposable nappies and incontinence products. Gwynedd Council will be changing their non-recyclable general waste collection to every 3 weeks, I can see our Council doing the same as they’ve now (last quarter) hit 63% of all waste recycled.

Well, at least you have a recycling service where you are; just across the border from you, we have the most efficient (and still weekly) general garbage collection service that anyone could hope for but no recycling vehicle has ever come near here. The best things for non-meat food waste are composting devices or under-sink waste disposal units.

Back to bags. Yesterday I asked one of the Waitrose cashiers if people did always remember, she said about 76% always did, mainly women. In answer to Dave’s query, the bags are thin, not something you’d wish to spend 5p on making a bag for life (or other sturdier bag) very attractive – so it’s all about changing attitudes as Flossie and jean say.

Yes, some of the "bags for life" for which modest charges are made in UK are nothing like as sturdy as those offered to customers of Intermarché, Carrefour, Leclerc and the like in France for no charge.

I think this discussion may be a bit academic. It’s not due to come in force in England until October 2015 and there is an election in May 2015 – who knows who’ll have the keys to No. 10 or who will be in bed with who ………. ??

Indeed - who knows if anyone will have the keys to that address if the only two parties in England (the situation might be more complex still in Wales and Scotland might no longer even be part of the equation by then) that can together achieve a majority in coalition would be the two that would never consider so doing in peacetime, namely the Tories and Not-so-New Labour; this could possibly occur if UKIP garner sufficient support to upset the political apple cart and the LibDems manage to recoup some of their recent and present losses...

[Anna]

As to the French, whose praises have been extolled here for their sturdy bags, well they are forever crafty, they found a possible financial incentive for their farmers in the fight against plastic bags!!

In 2005, France passed a ban on all non-biodegradable plastic bags, to be effective as of 2010, which French MP’s see as an amendment. Since then, only biodegradable plastic bags have been allowed. The ban came as part of an agricultural bill aimed not at environmental concerns, but rather to support their farming sector by providing farmers with a new market opportunity: plant matter for use in bioplastics (“materials of vegetable origins”). French MPs said they expect the amendment to help French farmers find new market opportunities as production subsidies through the EU's common agricultural policy are progressively declining. :-)

[ahinton]

As to the French, whose praises have been extolled here for their sturdy bags, well they are forever crafty, they found a possible financial incentive for their farmers in the fight against plastic bags!!

In 2005, France passed a ban on all non-biodegradable plastic bags, to be effective as of 2010, which French MP’s see as an amendment. Since then, only biodegradable plastic bags have been allowed. The ban came as part of an agricultural bill aimed not at environmental concerns, but rather to support their farming sector by providing farmers with a new market opportunity: plant matter for use in bioplastics (“materials of vegetable origins”). French MPs said they expect the amendment to help French farmers find new market opportunities as production subsidies through the EU's common agricultural policy are progressively declining. :-)

Sure - well, a cynical motive can usually be ascribed to almost anything, really! That said, the French supermarkets that I've visited do not issue any plastic bags, bio-degradable or otherwise, for customer use, so it would seem rather less than obvious how French farmers might benefit from any government production incentive where the supermarkets are concerned.

[french frank]

From today's Daily Mail, re charging for plastic bags to be included in the Queen's Speech:

"It has taken six years of relentless campaigning by the Mail to achieve this simple and painless measure, whose phenomenal effectiveness has been proved wherever it has been tried. This is a very good day for the environment."

Meanwhile, today's top leader item is a diatribe against the 'stalinist' EU ... no mention of the EU directive, which the Mail reported last April: "EU demands 80% reduction in use of plastic bags by 2019: New targets mean all countries will be forced to bring in charges or bans."

[ahinton]

From today's Daily Mail, re charging for plastic bags to be included in the Queen's Speech

Does that make her a "bag lady"?...

[amateur51]

One downside to biodegradable carrier bags for me, as an habitual user of carrier bags as a form of filing/storage,. is that the blighters do indeed degrade.

Picture the scene - in a rush, I grab a carrier bag ... and the bottom falls out! Anguished cries and muffled imprecations follow.

Every silver lining has a cloud.

That said, I'm mostly for them.

And make us pay for them too.

[Dave2002]

I still want to know what problem(s) does the government think this measure will solve.

The response here indicates that some people think there are problems, and I understand about the litter, and some of the damage to wildlife. I don't believe this measure will do much for CO2 reduction.

It still seems like a sledgehammer to crack a nut solution when there may not even be very significant problems due to bags, plus, there may be other much more important problems to solve.

[Flosshilde]

I think the weight of the evidence is against you. It's not just 'some people' who think there is a problem. You can refuse to believe something, but that doesn't make it not true.

[ahinton]

One downside to biodegradable carrier bags for me, as an habitual user of carrier bags as a form of filing/storage, is that the blighters do indeed degrade.

But that's surely more to do with such bags' unsuitability for longer term carrying of files and other perhaps quite heavy materials than with their suitability for the purpose for which they're actually intended? The very fact that such bags are bio-degradable means, after all, that they have an intentionally limited lifespan. Best to buy a filing cabinet instead!

[ahinton]

I think the weight of the evidence is against you. It's not just 'some people' who think there is a problem. You can refuse to believe something, but that doesn't make it not true.

If you're referring to am51 in so saying (and I'm not sure that this is the case), it would seem that it's the weight of the files that he keeps in biodegradable bags that's against him!

[Dave2002]

I think the weight of the evidence is against you. It's not just 'some people' who think there is a problem. You can refuse to believe something, but that doesn't make it not true.

Well perhaps you could address the points made in my previous post - number 190.

I can see evidence of "anecdotal evidence" from jean. I can see definite evidence that there has been a reduction of take up of bags in Wales - that I believe. The issue is "what problem(s) are solved by this proposed measure?"

There are many people who believe things which, to me at any rate, are manifestly untrue, so just reiterating that I'm in the wrong doesn't hack it.
Just as you suggest that "You can refuse to believe something, but that doesn't make it not true." another equally valid statement may be "You can decide to believe something, but that doesn't make it true."

Without a clear statement of purpose and appropriate evidence I still see no reason to change my views, which I am willing to do if such can be presented.

For me the basic issues are:

1. "What are the problems which originate from single use bags?"
2. "Are there sufficient problems, and is there evidence that there are significant problems to require action?" and
3. "Is the proposed measure the best and fairest way to solve such problems, if indeed they exist at all."

A subsidiary issue is whether government time should be better spent on other, possibly more important matters, and whether the government has got its priorities right and has ensured that it will deal with other significant and major issues as high priorities, but I'm willing to concede that if major issues are being dealt with, then there is some justification in addressing other, IMO, less important issues.

[teamsaint]

I still want to know what problem(s) does the government think this measure will solve.

The response here indicates that some people think there are problems, and I understand about the litter, and some of the damage to wildlife. I don't believe this measure will do much for CO2 reduction.

It still seems like a sledgehammer to crack a nut solution when there may not even be very significant problems due to bags, plus, there may be other much more important problems to solve.

Dave, you might be interested In the report linked in my post on the General chat thread on platform 3.
The increase in electrical waste each year is similar to the total waste from all carrier bags.
Some other interesing stats on there.