Scotland to charge for plastic bags

[MrGongGong]

wot Vic Reeves used to say

[teamsaint]

Took me a while. The George Dawes thing?

If so , :)

[MrGongGong]

http://www.britishclassiccomedy.co.uk/2011/03/you-just-wouldnt-let-it-lie-vic-reeves-big-night-out/

[ahinton]

Scotland to bag charges for plastic.

Scotland is charged with plastic baggery.

Poundland charges for Scottish plastic bags.

Scotland impounds plastic baggage charges.

Scotland leaves the United Kingdom in a plastic bag.

Plastic bags are no longer kosher in Scotia.

Scottish composer loses the will to live...

...zzzzzz...

[Flosshilde]

The subtext was that perhaps we could all do it with good grace, which is worth the effort I think.

& the subtext of that is "I can do it, why can't you?" That air of superiority again? As Jean said, it's very easy - just stop posting on the thread.

Just stopping posting doesn't really work for me, especially on a thread like this, and on a board where there are a small number of regular posters.

Not sure why it doesn't 'work' for you, but does for other people? & what is 'a thread like this' - why is it different from any other thread?

[teamsaint]

& the subtext of that is "I can do it, why can't you?" That air of superiority again? As Jean said, it's very easy - just stop posting on the thread.



Not sure why it doesn't 'work' for you, but does for other people? & what is 'a thread like this' - why is it different from any other thread?

Yawn.

Since you dont seem to want to have a proper conversation,one without personal abuse,I think you should find somebody else to play with.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I dare say TS would stop posting on the thread if others did not keep on being confrontational.

[Flosshilde]

Is it confrontational to question someone's statements and ask for evidence? Or to challenge them when they appear to say that while they're able to detect government 'distraction' tactics others here are fooled by it?

[french frank]

The real skill of debating is probably to demonstrate by argument that someone else has a weak argument. I'm not quite sure what the serious disagreement is about.

Is it a good thing to charge for single-use carrier bags/ Yes. (England should do it some time).

Is this a major contribution to solving the great environmental problems, like climate change, global warming, pollution, the depletion of natural resources? No, not a major one: a small one. But did anyone say it was a major contribution?

Was this a ploy by the coalition to distract people from their (the coalition's) woeful environmental record? I don't know - how would one know except on a post hoc ergo propter hoc basis? (They have a woeful record, ergo this must be a distraction from it). And has their record been particularly woeful compared with other governments, on average?

[Flosshilde]

Is it a good thing to charge for single-use carrier bags/ Yes. (England should do it some time).

Agreed.

Is this a major contribution to solving the great environmental problems, like climate change, global warming, pollution, the depletion of natural resources? No, not a major one: a small one. But did anyone say it was a major contribution?

Again, agreed

Was this a ploy by the coalition to distract people from their (the coalition's) woeful environmental record? I don't know - how would one know except on a post hoc ergo propter hoc basis? (They have a woeful record, ergo this must be a distraction from it). And has their record been particularly woeful compared with other governments, on average?

once more, agreed

The real skill of debating is probably to demonstrate by argument that someone else has a weak argument.

Agreed.

[ahinton]

Is it a good thing to charge for single-use carrier bags/ Yes. (England should do it some time).

But do you think that it would be preferable to supermarkets having no such carrier bags at all and offering, free of charge, better quality "bags for life" than most of those available in UK at present, as is done in France? I don't pretend to know the detailed economics of carrier bag manufacture, supply and distribution by UK supermarkets to UK customers (some paying, some not at present), but the possibility that the market for them dries up because UK supermarkets no longer order them seems to me to have the potential for greater environmental benefit than merely charging for items that are no less environmentally unfriendly just because some customers pay for them.

[french frank]

But do you think that it would be preferable to supermarkets having no such carrier bags at all and offering, free of charge, better quality "bags for life" than most of those available in UK at present, as is done in France?

In an ideal world, possibly. But make them free and there will be no incentive for shoppers to remember to bring them, even if they are 'for life'. I 'think' there is just as much reason to train the population as a whole as to what damage they can do to the environment. Large companies are better dealt with by some sort of 'polluter pays' taxes.

Statistics show (apparently - cf Wales) that demand falls off anyway if people have to pay for them. Quod erat faciendum.

[Dave2002]

Is it a good thing to charge for single-use carrier bags/ Yes. (England should do it some time).

I agree with most of msg 174. However I am still not in favour of a mandatory charge, of, say 5p per bag. If shops are encouraged to charge for bags I'd have no strong objection, though I think the quality of the bags would then become an issue. Lidl currently charge 3p for a modest quality bag, and 9p for a larger/better one. Those bags can be reused several times as they are considerably stronger. The M & S bags which cost 5p are OK, but not as good as the Lidl ones. I would really object to paying that much for some of the bags which are now available in Tesco or Sainsburys, which are only just fit for the purpose, but have I think been designed to degrade as rapidly as possible.

Also, as an aside, if I'm in Lidl I often take one of their cardboard boxes, instead of, or as well as, bags - as I'm told that otherwise they would be thrown away. Such boxes get used several times, or perhaps over a long period, before they are eventually discarded to recycling.

I am intrigued and surprised that so many have contributed to this thread, or perhaps it's just the same people who contribute many times. My views have changed slightly, as it now seems that the evidence from Wales is that the bag charges do reduce the number of bags taken. However, is there also evidence that whatever problems were caused by bags have also reduced? Is there less litter about? This may not have been proved.
All that seems to have been shown is that the plastic bag take up in shops and supermarkets has reduced.

For me the issue to be one of persuading people to behave responsibly, but this is a major problem apparently. The UK government has shied away from other measures which could be more important for some, such as having minimum prices for alcohol. The proposed measures in that issue would have little effect on most of the population, drinkers or non-drinkers, but could save some people from damaging their health and lives. So in one case where there could perhaps be a real benefit for some, the UK government has failed to impose any financial barriers to protect the health of vulnerable groups, presumably because the judgement is that the majority of the population act responsibly enough, and the minority who injure themselves must accept their individual responsibility for the problems they cause themselves. This does not mean that it should not do so in other cases, but it seems that there is not even the will to try the experiment, which according to medical experts would be likely to help quite a large number of people.

Appealing to people to behave responsibly does not always work, but financial incentives and penalties for conformist/non-conformist behaviour do not always work either. Changing large scale behaviour can take a long time, and also behaviour changes may reverse over long periods.
I would be interested to know whether the drink driving campaigns and strategies over the last fourty years have led to continuing reduction in problems. I am fairly sure that there were significant changes in attitudes to drink driving in the 1970s and 80s, but I wonder if there is now some sort of reversal - or lack of awareness. I found this - http://trafficsafe.org/index.php/uk-...-driving-6985/ which actually points out that people who are convicted of a drink driving offence get a criminal record - something I didn't know. Does awareness that an action may lead to a criminal record have any significant effect on changing our group behaviours? Only for some, I think.

[jean]

...it now seems that the evidence from Wales is that the bag charges do reduce the number of bags taken. However, is there also evidence that whatever problems were caused by bags have also reduced? Is there less litter about? This may not have been proved.

As I posted above, anecdtal evidence from Wales indicates that this is indeed the case.

...the UK government has failed to impose any financial barriers to protect the health of vulnerable groups, presumably because the judgement is that the majority of the population act responsibly enough, and the minority who injure themselves must accept their individual responsibility for the problems they cause themselves.

I don't think that's the reasoning behind the failure to impose a minimum price for alcohol.

The point is that nobody wants a plastic bag as much as some people want a drink.

[Flosshilde]

the quality of the bags would then become an issue. Lidl currently charge 3p for a modest quality bag, and 9p for a larger/better one. Those bags can be reused several times as they are considerably stronger. The M & S bags which cost 5p are OK, but not as good as the Lidl ones. I would really object to paying that much for some of the bags which are now available in Tesco or Sainsburys, which are only just fit for the purpose, but have I think been designed to degrade as rapidly as possible.

But it isn't really about 'buying' a bag; it's about paying a charge for using a bag, so the quality of the bag is irrelevant. As you say (& as I said a while back) it's about changing attitudes - getting people into the habit of taking a bag with them, or realising that the packet of sandwiches they bought can go into their handbag or backpack (it should also hopefully change the shops' attitude too - Greggs, for example are apalling, with their staff automatically reaching for a bag for the smallest purchase. You almost have to shout at them not to put it in a bag as they just aren't tuned into hearing the words 'No bag please').