Breaking the mould - it took 100 years!

[jean]

If we really do now have a four-party system, it's not the Lib Dems who are the fourth party.

[Beef Oven!]

If we really do now have a four-party system, it's not the Lib Dems who are the fourth party.

No, they have a larger membership than the UKIP, Members of parliament, a bigger LA presence, the deputy prime minister and can call on 6m voters in a general election.

[french frank]

If we really do now have a four-party system, it's not the Lib Dems who are the fourth party.

For the present, I think it is.

[Beef Oven!]

For the present, I think it is.

With respect, being temporarily unhappy with one's party does not alter the tangibles that underpin any pecking order.

How can you say that the LibDems are fourth, given the facts as per my post #17?

[Flosshilde]

For the present, I think it is.

Depends where you are (or, I suppose, what four parties you mean).

(I thought BO said a while ago that he wasn't going to post on this forum anymore?)

[french frank]

How can you say that the LibDems are fourth, given the facts as per my post #17?

First, no one is claiming that there isn't disaffection with the EU. But you answered question: UKIP came top in the latest election, which had a relatively low turn-out and in which the issue on which UKIP campaigns was prominent. Does that make it the major party in UK politics?

The Greens have made progress, coming fourth, but so they did in the Euro elections of 1989, 25 years ago, since when the Lib Dems have been the third party in domestic politics.

People vote always on the perception of the current government's performance and both coalition parties have been punished.

[MrGongGong]

With respect, being temporarily unhappy with one's party does not alter the tangibles that underpin any pecking order.

How can you say that the LibDems are fourth, given the facts as per my post #17?

You are a Kipper supporter
don't pretend that you believe in "facts" because the kippers rely on the old technique of repeating lies over and over

75% of our laws ARE NOT made in Brussels (don't you listen to "More or Less" ???)
and so on and so on

but hey, who gives a toss about "facts" when the bar is open ?

[french frank]

Looking quickly through the results, it doesn't seem to be the 'austerity' countries (Greece, Portugal, Spain, Cyprus(?)) which have turned so obviously against the EU.

[Beef Oven!]

Has anyone else noted the speed and content of Bill Tong's replies in triumphalist mode?

The dyslexia doesn't seem to be much of an impairment this morning.

As you know, I ignore your persistent nasty digs at me. I accept it as the work of the nasty streak that you have in you. You're not going to change.

But I will not leave a comment unanswered, that invites fellow forum members to comment on the race, gender, disability, or anything else like that, of a fellow forum member.

A learning disability, however mild is, not something to be made fun of in the way that you do.

Feel free to continue following me about the forum making your nasty little comments, as you do, but please keep away from things like race, disability gender etc.

I am pleased that no-one responded to your question.

[ahinton]

Even leaving aside for a moment the racist and proto-fascist accusations that are levelled in some quarters at UKIP, what that party appears to ignore is that its very existence may prove vulnerable to being undermined by possible events.

David Cameron has pledged an in/out referendum on UK's continued membership of EU to be held in 2017 should his party win the next UK General Election.The Scottish referendum on independence from UK, however, will be held in a few months' time and, if it results in Scotland's departure from the Union, Wales might be encouraged to hold a similar referendum. If it does and if it's scheduled to occur before the UK's EU referendum and results in Wales leaving the Union, there will no longer be a UK, so the kippers will find themselves with nowhere for which to seek independence and Mr Cameron's referendum will likewise have to be abandoned in its currently proposed form. The kippers woudl then have either to dissolve or to rename themselves the English Independence Party (which might sound rather too close to the English Defence League for comfort) while Mr Cameron, whose party will then be failing to govern England alone, will have to scrap UK's EU in/out referendum altogether or replace it with an English EU in/out one instead.

That might arguably still leave open the question of whether an independent Scotland and/or and independent Wales would need to reapply for EU membership (which still seems unclear) and, if so, whether either or both would do so and whether either such application would succeed. Were each to reapply successfully for EU membership in its own right, would the displaced kippers in those countries try to rise up and seek to overturn those newly granted EU memberships or would they simply put up and shut up on the grounds that such a move would likely be on a hiding to nothing?

OK, let's return to those accusations of racism and proto-fascism that some people direct at UKIP. If UKIP reinvents itself in a post-Union environment, it would have to split into three in three independent countries and seek to campaign for the independence of each from EU. What chance of credibility, let alone success, in that? - and would each also reinvent its racist credentials by campaigning for strict controls on immigration from the other two as well as from elsewhere?

[french frank]

The kippers woudl then have either to dissolve or to rename themselves the English Independence Party (which might sound rather too close to the English Defence League for comfort)

They could merge with the English Democrats?

What I feel is that, whether singling out Romanians as people you probably wouldn't want as neighbours is strictly 'racism' or not is not important: it's just as disagreeable as picking on Muslims because of their religion (not their race) or 'social inferiors' because they don't know how to behave 'properly. Or any 'foreigners' because they're not 'us'. And have smelly food. These are all forms of narrow intolerance.

However the Scotland Independence Party already exists - it's called the SNP, and they seem to want to be part of the EU. That might create a problem for Scotland's UKIP MEP if they secede.

[Beef Oven!]

Even leaving aside for a moment the racist and proto-fascist accusations that are levelled in some quarters at UKIP, what that party appears to ignore is that its very existence may prove vulnerable to being undermined by possible events.

David Cameron has pledged an in/out referendum on UK's continued membership of EU to be held in 2017 should his party win the next UK General Election.The Scottish referendum on independence from UK, however, will be held in a few months' time and, if it results in Scotland's departure from the Union, Wales might be encouraged to hold a similar referendum. If it does and if it's scheduled to occur before the UK's EU referendum and results in Wales leaving the Union, there will no longer be a UK, so the kippers will find themselves with nowhere for which to seek independence and Mr Cameron's referendum will likewise have to be abandoned in its currently proposed form. The kippers woudl then have either to dissolve or to rename themselves the English Independence Party (which might sound rather too close to the English Defence League for comfort) while Mr Cameron, whose party will then be failing to govern England alone, will have to scrap UK's EU in/out referendum altogether or replace it with an English EU in/out one instead.

That might arguably still leave open the question of whether an independent Scotland and/or and independent Wales would need to reapply for EU membership (which still seems unclear) and, if so, whether either or both would do so and whether either such application would succeed. Were each to reapply successfully for EU membership in its own right, would the displaced kippers in those countries try to rise up and seek to overturn those newly granted EU memberships or would they simply put up and shut up on the grounds that such a move would likely be on a hiding to nothing?

OK, let's return to those accusations of racism and proto-fascism that some people direct at UKIP. If UKIP reinvents itself in a post-Union environment, it would have to split into three in three independent countries and seek to campaign for the independence of each from EU. What chance of credibility, let alone success, in that? - and would each also reinvent its racist credentials by campaigning for strict controls on immigration from the other two as well as from elsewhere?

Leaving aside silly ideas about proto-fascism etc, and childish comments about mergers with he likes of the English Democrats etc, the UKIP does not really face the challenges that you are talking about. The UKIP is a populist party whose message resonates with the electorate. Heseltine thinks that it's simply about a protest vote that traditionally used to go to the LibDems. If you don't want to see the UKIP playing a major role in British politics, then you're going to be disappointed, based on your analysis.

[MrGongGong]

The UKIP is a populist party whose message resonates with the electorate.

It's a bit sad that the "message" that you say "resonates" is one of hatred and distrust.

A much bigger problem, though, is racists who think that Ukip is racist. Because there seem to be quite a few of them, too. Take William Henwood, a party candidate in Enfield and the guy who declared that Lenny Henry should ‘emigrate to a black country’ and ‘does not have to live with whites’. That’s a bit racist, right? Or take Andre Lampitt, who featured in its election broadcast last week, and then turned out to think that Muslims were animals and Ed Miliband was Polish. Definitely not un-racist, him. Or take whoever has been unearthed in the time between me writing this and you reading this.

My father used to have rather angry moments where in a fit of rage he would shout "I'm not short tempered"

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

, I wonder whether the creation of an indepentdent Scotland might legally be considered the end of the present UK, and that the new union would therefore have to re-apply for EU membership, just like Scotland.

[Beef Oven!]

It's a bit sad that the "message" that you say "resonates" is one of hatred and distrust.

No, some people like you want to read it that way. The old trick. If something doesn't fit with your 'world-view', you stick a nasty tag on it. If you don't like Heinrich Lachenmann because it doesn't sound like Elgar...........if it offends you because people don't agree with you.....rather than understand it, you attack it. People calling music noise, libertarians being called fascists. All because people can't get others to see the world the way they want them to. Seems there's a lot of Liberal-fascists out there!