Election period

[french frank]

But looking at the results of this
if there are "winners and losers" then Labour "WON" the Council Election by a rather large margin.

Yes, getting back to the elections, this is what happens: one or other of the two big parties 'wins' - whichever isn't in government. This time UKIP has caused a few ripples, before it was the BNP, standing for many of the same issues. In a previous Euro election, it was the Greens.

In the end, if we don't have a changed voting system it will probably always end up between the Big Two. People were convinced that the change offered to them was no better than the status quo, so they voted to stay with the status quo. Vox populi, vox Dei.

[french frank]

And this what the students themselves are saying about the new system:

http://www.savethestudent.org/student-finance/9-myths-about-tuition-fees-2012.html

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

And this what the students themselves are saying about the new system:

http://www.savethestudent.org/studen...fees-2012.html

It seems to be more prpaganda to sell the shabby system.

[french frank]

It seems to be more prpaganda to sell the shabby system.

I don't know why people can't accept that the system is not as bad as it was thought to be at first and the students realise that. Why should a student website want to provide propaganda in favour of an anti-student policy? That doesn't make sense. Look at their Facebook page: "We hosted the largest petition against the increase in tuition fees in 2010." They seem to have mellowed a bit ...

Where are the responses to the arguments of the case?

[Serial_Apologist]

I don't think that was ever in question !
But if you ask University students about trust and honesty then you will get a different balance all together

It's easy to make out that something is somehow more complicated than it really is
When I speak to folks in their 20's its the "honesty thing" that is most important even if it might make them less well off.

It does IMV illustrate how our politics seems to be almost entirely composed of those who make appeals to self interest rather than saying "Vote for us and we will try and make the world better for everyone".

But looking at the results of this
if there are "winners and losers" then Labour "WON" the Council Election by a rather large margin.

My personal preference for honesty over intelligence probably reflects low self-esteem on my part, remembering as I well do the late Ian Carr's remark that "You can be totally honest and be a complete fool". Honesty may not guarantee the leadership qualities humankind will probably go on needing to get itself out of its own mess, until such time that each and every one can become his/her own leader, but it is surely the preconditional sine qua non of accountability.

[MrGongGong]

I don't know why people can't accept that the system is not as bad as it was thought to be at first and the students realise that. Why should a student website want to provide propaganda in favour of an anti-student policy? That doesn't make sense. Look at their Facebook page: "We hosted the largest petition against the increase in tuition fees in 2010." They seem to have mellowed a bit ...

Where are the responses to the arguments of the case?

Even if under the new system there would be free beer, unlimited Wifi and essay deadline extensions the basic deception still is dishonest.
What is encouraging (again) is that many youngsters are more concerned with ethics and honourable behaviour than self interest !
No one (particularly if you are in your early 20's!) likes being patronised

[french frank]

I prefer honesty and intelligence. But Gongers selectively quoting half of the infamous pledge (which is itself contradictory) does seem to me to be, erm, dishonest. :-)

If the students had fully understood the 'myths' (not my word) that were being perpetuated, and had been asked at the time: "Would you prefer us to stick to keeping the tuition fees at the same level but retain the same unfair system to which you allude and which you ask us to improve? Or would you prefer us to introduce a socially fairer system, including a graduate tax, which would include higher tuition fees which only people already in well-paid graduate-type jobs would have to pay?" - which do you think they would have chosen? Or would their eyes have glazed over as they mumbled, 'Eh?'

[MrGongGong]

I prefer honesty and intelligence. But Gongers selectively quoting half of the infamous pledge (which is itself contradictory) does seem to me to be, erm, dishonest. :-)

If the students had fully understood the 'myths' (not my word) that were being perpetuated, and had been asked at the time: "Would you prefer us to stick to keeping the tuition fees at the same level but retain the same unfair system to which you allude and which you ask us to improve? Or would you prefer us to introduce a socially fairer system, including a graduate tax, which would include higher tuition fees which only people already in well-paid graduate-type jobs would have to pay?" - which do you think they would have chosen? Or would their eyes have glazed over as they mumbled, 'Eh?'

You really don't get it at all do you !

To say this

"I pledge to vote against any increase in fees in the next parliament and to pressure the government to introduce a fairer alternative.”

And to vote for an increase
is dishonest

that's all there is to say about it really

All the rest is bollocks
It's not a "selective" quote
He said it
He didn't do what he said he would do
He deserves all he gets and sadly has shafted the rest of us along with him

The best the Lib Dems can hope for is to get rid of Clegg and start again rather than try to mend something that is broken....

Honesty matters
you, along with many others, seem to think that one can discard ethics for power (which surprises me)

Sad sad sad indeed

[french frank]

You really don't get it at all do you ![...]Sad sad sad indeed

It's becoming noticeable - and slightly distressing (to me) - that you seem to be the only one left in the discussion. And you ONLY want to talk about what the Lib Dems did: you can't be persuaded to discuss the system itself because it 'doesn't matter'.

More facts: there are three different groups of students:

1. Those who sadly never manage to get a job because of the recession, or not a well-paid one, or choose a low-paid one in public service, so don't reach the repayment minimum. Tuition fees: Abolished (tab picked up by government via SLC)

2. Those who get a reasonably paid job some time after they graduate, which probably will pay more with time. Tuition fees: Repayment taken as PAYE at a rate of 9% of anything OVER the annual repayment minumum (earn £22,000, repay £90 pa). Likely to be less than under the previous scheme, could be exactly the same, could be more, depending on how big their salary is. Loss of job, loss of income through illness: don't pay. Only pay the months you're earning.

3. Those who land a plum job paying a good whack (probably rich kids working for daddy's friend anyway). Tuition fees: They'll pay back the whole lot well inside 30 years, their 9% rate amounting to a lot more. Standard graduate tax.

All loans wiped out if unpaid in full after 30 years, or if the graduate dies.

Since the SLC is govt owned and funded, any shortfall (partially caused by the number of universities opting to charge the full amount allowed - £9,000 - and provide the required bursaries and scholarships) will in the end be paid by the government, which as owners of SLC will be liable for its (real) debts.

This is not for the benefit of MrGongGong because it's all bollocks, as he says. But it's fact-based for the benefit of others and if there are any inaccuracies I would be grateful to have them pointed out. It does not let the Lib Dems off the hook: they should all be hanged from a lamppost, probably the same lamppost as, quite rightly, there are so few of them left. But it is a separate issue.

[MrGongGong]

The system does matter
but I thought this was about why people don't vote for the Lib Dems ?
back to the election methinks

[french frank]

And with one bound ... :-)

[MrGongGong]

back in the world
I see that in a Britain-wide election
Labour would have got 31%
Tories 29%
Kippers 17%
Lib Dems 13%


So a triumph for UKIP as all the media are telling us !!! er erm hummmm isn't that a smaller percentage than the last local election ? (I don't know but seem to have read that they got something like 23%)

If this was a horse race (and so on)

[Anna]

As to tuition fees, I cannot comment but under student loans the last member of the family that graduated from Uni under the loan system so far has not paid back a penny. Now she has children and is only working part time teaching special needs I doubt she ever will for the foreseeable future.

As to the council elections (of course we didn't have any here) two points struck me: Firstly as regards Kippers London is indeed a seperate country and secondly, Labour didn't do as well as I thought they might, however I am heartened by the result for the Greens. I'm more concerned with the result of the Euros as at present we have 4 MEPs, one of which is a Kipper, I dread the thought of having two of them representing Wales.

[MrGongGong]

however I am heartened by the result for the Greens.

Who have 1 MP and NO media coverage ?

I'm starting to loose confidence in the BBC (laugh) they will start to change Radio 3 next :yikes: :wink:

[Beef Oven!]

So a triumph for UKIP as all the media are telling us !!! er erm hummmm isn't that a smaller percentage than the last local election ? (I don't know but seem to have read that they got something like 23%)

If this was a horse race (and so on)

And if your auntie had balls, she'd be your uncle.

You can't always have your own way MrGonGong - you need to get over it.

We have four-party politics in Britain now, back in the real world!