Clegg V Farage

[MrGongGong]

In this case putting "succeed" in quotes and talking of "so-called facts" suggested a certain degree of opposition. If not meant, sorry I misinterpreted.

Not at all
it was meant to imply that these things are relative not absolute qualities or things.
"Success" is often defined in very narrow ways

I think that last sentence is a bit of a generalisation. Universities are also places where people can find out 'who they are' and if they didn't know why they were there when they first went it leaves plenty of doors open.

Yes it is
that's why I used the word "seem" ..... but i'm not the linguist
one of the problems these days is that if you find (as frequently happens) that what you thought you were interested in studying happens only to be what you happened to be good at passing exams in at school and want to change what you do you end up with owning £9,000 or more with nothing to show for it. So your last point is getting less true as the costs escalate..............

All very OT though but more interesting than Clegg and Farridge

But I'm still puzzled by why mr W thinks teaching History is "Brainwashing" ?

[teamsaint]

But I'm still puzzled by why mr W thinks teaching History is "Brainwashing" ?

i know why I think it is" brainwashing", or at the least very unfortunate in some of its effects.
The kind of History that is taught in schools , and the content, seem to me very often to be specifically designed to reinforce a world view that endorses the status quo.
History taught as a series of conflicts, of inevitable competition between economies that" have" to grow to survive. A view in which populations need to be controlled by force and coercion. (EG the very benign view of the Norman invasion of England, and the entrenchment of the feudal system).A view in which shortage is wrongly seen as inevitable, except for a lucky few. A view which tends to ignore absolute fundamentals which are central to the conflict which dominated the last century, EG the arms race/industry, and the pernicious effects of control of economies run by and for the benefit of banks.

I won't go on, but unless History is taught in a way that asks students to fundamentally challenge assumptions about how things work, have worked, and why events occur, it amounts something close to a kind of brainwashing , IMO, because the Status quo doesn't get challenged.

I would love to know what James W thinks.

[Serial_Apologist]

i know why I think it is" brainwashing", or at the least very unfortunate in some of its effects.
The kind of History that is taught in schools , and the content, seem to me very often to be specifically designed to reinforce a world view that endorses the status quo.
History taught as a series of conflicts, of inevitable competition between economies that" have" to grow to survive. A view in which populations need to be controlled by force and coercion. (EG the very benign view of the Norman invasion of England, and the entrenchment of the feudal system).A view in which shortage is wrongly seen as inevitable, except for a lucky few. A view which tends to ignore absolute fundamentals which are central to the conflict which dominated the last century, EG the arms race/industry, and the pernicious effects of control of economies run by and for the benefit of banks.

I won't go on, but unless History is taught in a way that asks students to fundamentally challenge assumptions about how things work, have worked, and why events occur, it amounts something close to a kind of brainwashing , IMO, because the Status quo doesn't get challenged.

I would love to know what James W thinks.

Well said TS - excellent post.

[MrGongGong]

The kind of History that is taught in schools , and the content, seem to me very often to be specifically designed to reinforce a world view that endorses the status quo

Exactly what I remember from being at a grammar school in the 1970's
James W seemed to imply that somehow this was a modern "problem" ?

I suspect (but could be wrong of course) that James thinks that there is a conspiracy to "brainwash" young people ?

[Flosshilde]

I do agree that having schools teaching PHSE and Citizenship does contain an element of brainwashing - of whatever standards are deemed to be politically and socially acceptable to the people who compile the syllabus - something that is then delivered by people who often do so under duress. Then the school can confirm that it has ticked all the necessary boxes.

PHSE contains a pretty wide range of topics - the 'health' element can include education about nutrition & healthy eating that BO is keen the state provides, rather than free school meals. I don't know if you would consider that 'brainwashing'? Or is it 'brainwashing' only if it educates children on topics you don't agree with/approve of? (& that's a question for JW as well)

[MrGongGong]

Or is it 'brainwashing' only if it educates children on topics you don't agree with/approve of?

I suspect that you hit the nail on the head there :-)

[Beef Oven!]

.....the 'health' element can include education about nutrition & healthy eating that BO is keen the state provides, rather than free school meals.

Schools to provide school meals to all kids, and free of charge to kiddies that can't afford them. Quote me properly, winkle, or don't quote me at all.

Focusing on basic life-skills isn't brain-washing. Helping kiddies to understand that they can't spend 30p if they've only got 20p in their pocket - that sort of thing.

But Alpensinfonie is quite right to refer to an element of brainwashing.

[Beef Oven!]

I suspect that you hit the nail on the head there :-)

Not at all. Beyond the basic stuff, why don't we let kiddies just get on with finding their way in life? Adults should leave kiddies be as much as possible, IMV.

Remind me, what has this got to do with TV licence funding?

[MrGongGong]

Not at all. Beyond the basic stuff, why don't we let kiddies just get on with finding their way in life?

Good idea
I suggest we take the choir of KX Cambridge and maroon them on an island so they can work it all out for themselves.

(another good reason why girls in Cathedral choirs are a bad idea ? )

2 points:



1: There isn't (nor could there be) a consensus on what the "basic stuff" is
2: Last week I taught someone what the Dorian mode was, is that "an element of brainwashing" ?

[ahinton]

Last week I taught someone what the Dorian mode was, is that "an element of brainwashing" ?

Depends on how you did it and whether the student believed you, I guess!...

[MrGongGong]

Depends on how you did it and whether the student believed you, I guess!...

I locked them in a dark room and played Terry Riley's Dorian Reeds at high volume for 4 hours.
If they don't remember next week I'm going to beat them with a stick until they do.
We need a "back to basics" approach after all !

[ahinton]

I locked them in a dark room and played Terry Riley's Dorian Reeds at high volume for 4 hours.

So they didn't believe you, then, either before or after your imparting of that particular piece of knowledge!

If they don't remember next week I'm going to beat them with a stick until they do.

A gong stick, presumably; I cannot for the life of me imagine, however, what makes you think that they'd come back next week in any case if that's a typical example of your "teaching" "methods"!

We need a "back to basics" approach after all !

That reminds me of Sorabji's remark about Stravinsky and the so-called "back to Bach" business; "there he stands, with his back to Bach"...

But let's return to serious discussion of the topic; isn't unseemliness the only possible significant outcome of head-to-head slanging matches between two minority party leaders of which one is a Farage bandmaster and the other has Clegg on his face? That said, as I indicated from my earlier comparison of this with the Not the Three Tenors pre-election one in 2010, the spectacle of public exchanges between a bunch of political party leaders seems to have little going for it besides entertainment value and even that tends to evaporate very rapidly; after all, does anyone believe that the Brown/Clegg/Cameron exposure made the slightest difference to the outcome of the 2010 election?

[Beef Oven!]

Good idea
I suggest we take the choir of KX Cambridge and maroon them on an island so they can work it all out for themselves.

(another good reason why girls in Cathedral choirs are a bad idea ? )

2 points:



1: There isn't (nor could there be) a consensus on what the "basic stuff" is
2: Last week I taught someone what the Dorian mode was, is that "an element of brainwashing" ?

Of course there can be a consensus about "basic stuff". Basic stuff like hygiene, don't hit people, how to cross the road, how to eat and drink things, how to use money and so on. All stuff no reasonable person would disagree with. When you get the topics that start to produce little disagreements, just re-wind a notch and you'll be at the consensus. It's like ABC or Doh Ray Mee!

Now, those topics that there might be some disagreement about, we can leave to the expert educationalists, like Gove and others (so long as we are consulted along the way and have an opportunity to influence).

[Beef Oven!]

I locked them in a dark room and played Terry Riley's Dorian Reeds at high volume for 4 hours.
If they don't remember next week I'm going to beat them with a stick until they do.
We need a "back to basics" approach after all !

I have to disagree with your contention that we need a "back to basics" approach. I have to say I think you are wrong.

I would argue that the "basics'' should be the necessary pre-requisite for the more stimulating and 'self-actualising' aspects of a healthy education for our young.

[ahinton]

It's like ABC or Doh Ray Mee!

...said the 12-note serial composer and agreed by the microtonal one...