Clegg V Farage

[french frank]

What are you saying no to?

I think you should have more faith in human nature. Those who think that 'it's a good thing' in the abstract, don't mind paying their fair share at all, in reality.

No, I don't think it's a sentiment exclusive to socialists. I seem to have inadvertently aborted a reply I gave to Msg#115 in which I said that I held that view myself and that far from being a socialist I was a deceitful, lying, opportunistic, money-grubbing Liberal Democrat.

However, as for having more faith in 'human nature', humans are too diverse. I seem to remember you were arguing strongly against funding the BBC from general taxation on the grounds that people shouldn't be taxed more heavily ("So it is going to be a burden on the exchequer and another bashing for the tax-payer! "). But if living standards, whether between nations or the the UK population, are to be made more equal than they are there would have to be decided shift in the distribution of wealth - and a 'bashing' for richer tax-payers.

[MrGongGong]

PHSE, Citizenship.

History, for that matter.

Tell me why those things are "brainwashing" ?
and with what authority you speak on the matter.

(a serious question because so many folks who talk about what happens in schools don't really have any experience at all since they were 18)

[teamsaint]

Tell me why those things are "brainwashing" ?
and with what authority you speak on the matter.

(a serious question because so many folks who talk about what happens in schools don't really have any experience at all since they were 18)

What level of authority is satisfactory? Do you need to be a professional educator? is closely observing your own children's progress through the system enough? What about discussions with educators who you know and trust?

[MrGongGong]

One doesn't need to be a "professional" to speak with authority. But there's a hell of a lot of "received wisdom" about

[teamsaint]

there is indeed.
There is also an enormous amount that needs challenging in our "education system", and not that much of it to do with the efforts of the teachers.

[french frank]

Are we still on about the EU or have we moved on?

[Beef Oven!]

No, I don't think it's a sentiment exclusive to socialists. I seem to have inadvertently aborted a reply I gave to Msg#115 in which I said that I held that view myself and that far from being a socialist I was a deceitful, lying, opportunistic, money-grubbing Liberal Democrat.

However, as for having more faith in 'human nature', humans are too diverse. I seem to remember you were arguing strongly against funding the BBC from general taxation on the grounds that people shouldn't be taxed more heavily ("So it is going to be a burden on the exchequer and another bashing for the tax-payer! "). But if living standards, whether between nations or the the UK population, are to be made more equal than they are there would have to be decided shift in the distribution of wealth - and a 'bashing' for richer tax-payers.

All seems a bit confused. I said that I welcomed your acknowledgement that you thought it's not a sentiment exclusive to socialists, and you replied that I shouldn't [welcome it]!

And yes indeed, I'm dead against funding the BBC from general taxation. I would want a more imaginative solution that doesn't heap another burden on the exchequer.

However, if there is no other solution, the service that we have been accustomed to cannot be left to die, so as a last report - maybe. Reluctantly. With a broken heart.

[french frank]

All seems a bit confused. I said that I welcomed your acknowledgement that you thought it's not a sentiment exclusive to socialists, and you replied that I shouldn't [welcome it]!

Someone's confused, certainly. I was agreeing with you that NO - the idea (of raising the living standards of others) was NOT exclusive to socialists. BUT that didn't mean the non socialists wanted to be asked to pay to achieve it, which is the key point.

[french frank]

And yes indeed, I'm dead against funding the BBC from general taxation. I would want a more imaginative solution that doesn't heap another burden on the exchequer.

Not sure what that means: the burden would not be on the exchequer- it would be on the tax-payer, since it would be a hypothecated tax.

[MrGongGong]

However, if there is no other solution, the service that we have been accustomed to cannot be left to die, so as a last report - maybe. Reluctantly. With a broken heart.

You mean you want the "nanny state" to supply you with music ?
Why can't you buy your own from an enterprising private company ?

:winkysmilething:

[James Wonnacott]

Tell me why those things are "brainwashing" ?
and with what authority you speak on the matter.

(a serious question because so many folks who talk about what happens in schools don't really have any experience at all since they were 18)

I work in one.

[teamsaint]

I work in one.

I know we are Off Topic here, but I would be interested to hear about what you think constitutes brainwashing in the education system.

I happen to be of the opinion that our system is one that discourages real questioning , thwarts development of talents and interests. it also presents a view of history that suggests that people need the control of strong government, that countries need to be economically and militarily aggressive to survive.
In fact, and in brief, that the status quo is in "our" best interests.

[Beef Oven!]

Not sure what that means: the burden would not be on the exchequer- it would be on the tax-payer, since it would be a hypothecated tax.

You were talking about general taxation, not ring-fenced monies (and in any case it's still a burden on the exchequer because raising tax is a nil-sum-game).

[Beef Oven!]

You mean you want the "nanny state" to supply you with music ?
Why can't you buy your own from an enterprising private company ?

:winkysmilething:

The state has a role to play. We need to choose priorities for its intervention. If we are so unimaginative that a solution can't be found, then as some people are arguing in this forum, we'll have to put another separate tax on people who work for their living.

[french frank]

we'll have to put another separate tax on people who work for their living.

It wouldn't be a 'separate tax' - it would be included in general taxation; and it would be people with an income level above the personal allowance who paid, regardless of who 'worked for their living' and who didn't.

At the lower end of the income scale they could pay less than the current £145.50 p.a., at the higher end they would probably pay more. That's not considered an unjust system of levying tax in other areas.