Clegg V Farage

[jean]

...We can't sack anyone in Brussels, apart from our own Euro MP's and does anyone bother with them?...

If we don 't we should - it was voter apathy that let Nick Griffin in last time.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

It's also the list/PR system that provides a total disconnect between voter and the "elected". There is no real accountabilty. And of course it provides a wonderful career path for party placemen/women moving up the career ladder...of ALL parties.

[amateur51]

It's also the list/PR system that provides a total disconnect between voter and the "elected". There is no real accountabilty. And of course it provides a wonderful career path for party placemen/women moving up the career ladder...of ALL parties.

I think the UK's domestic political system has achieved that disconnection without the need for PR, y'know.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Fair point.

[jean]

It's also the list/PR system that provides a total disconnect between voter and the "elected"...

Not necessarily - it provides a serious chance for small parties to be properly represented.

Unfortunately, too many people are still not aware of this, and it was the BNP who benefited last time.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

E.P.Elections...

"In a given region the allocated seats
are awarded using a quota system.
The quota is the total number of
votes received by a party or
independent candidate divided by
the number of seats already gained
in that region +1.
So, for a party with no seats the
number of votes received is divided
by one, and so stays the same. If
the party already has one seat then
its number of votes is divided by
two, if it has two seats it is divided
by three, and so on.
This means that the more seats you
have already won, the harder it is to
gain extra seats, so the overall
allocation of seats is more
proportional to the number of votes
received.
The first seat that a party wins goes
to the first person on its list, the
second seat to the second person,
and so on, until the party has either
not won any more seats or has run
out of names on its list."

And you think THAT leads to voter identification? Pre or post election?

Dream on. The list suits the parties.

[jean]

I don't know what you mean by 'voter identification'.

[french frank]

I welcome your acknowledgement that a Europe that seeks to raise the living standards of all nations is not exclusively socialistic.

Well don't. I think it is a socialist idea (the clue is in the word), but I am well aware that there are socialists who oppose the EU for quite other reasons. That was the only reason I used 'socialistic' in quotes.

I still think of 'right-wing' as referring to people whose social concerns start with themselves, then radiate out to their families, then their restricted circle of friends and perhaps 'people like us' and finally run out completely when the great mass of the unwashed clamour for social justice.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I don't know what you mean by 'voter identification'.

I mean that a vote is related to a specific candidate. Before the EP system was regionised I (in Wales) could vote for say Glenys Kinnock as my MEP for S.E. Wales. Not ideal but some local identity. Now we vote for MEPs on a national/Wales wide PR basis with NO idea what area they will cover. No one knows who "their" MEP is and indeed few now care. Who can blame them and I speak as someone who worked for the European Commission.

Hold those bricks.

[James Wonnacott]

I still think of 'right-wing' as referring to people whose social concerns start with themselves, then radiate out to their families, then their restricted circle of friends and perhaps 'people like us' and finally run out completely when the great mass of the unwashed clamour for social justice.

Does that description apply to everyone who is not a socialist?

[Beef Oven!]

Well don't. I think it is a socialist idea (the clue is in the word), but I am well aware that there are socialists who oppose the EU for quite other reasons. That was the only reason I used 'socialistic' in quotes.

I still think of 'right-wing' as referring to people whose social concerns start with themselves, then radiate out to their families, then their restricted circle of friends and perhaps 'people like us' and finally run out completely when the great mass of the unwashed clamour for social justice.

Not sure why you think think the desire to raise the living standards of all nations is exclusively the domain of socialists.

How you think about 'right-wing' people is, I suspect irrelevant to the discussion - in the same way as my thoughts about the psychological motivations of Liberals and socialists are too.

[french frank]

Not sure why you think think the desire to raise the living standards of all nations is exclusively the domain of socialists.

No, but many who think that in the abstract it's A Good Thing don't like the idea of having to pay for what is needful, if everyone being better off means that they will be less well off than they are. That's the payback which not everyone is so keen on, isn't it?

[Beef Oven!]

No, but many who think that in the abstract it's A Good Thing don't like the idea of having to pay for what is needful, if everyone being better off means that they will be less well off than they are. That's the payback which not everyone is so keen on, isn't it?

What are you saying no to?

I think you should have more faith in human nature. Those who think that 'it's a good thing' in the abstract, don't mind paying their fair share at all, in reality.

[amateur51]

What are you saying no to?

I think you should have more faith in human nature. Those who think that 'it's a good thing' in the abstract, don't mind paying their fair share at all, in reality.

Weasel italics - define 'fair share'

[ahinton]

If we don 't we should - it was voter apathy that let Nick Griffin in last time.

...though no one ever appeared on prime-time television and declared "I agree with Nick" in his case, mercifully...