Clegg V Farage

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Yes, that midnight EU knock at the door and being dragged off to Lubyanka....Oh where is the UKIP Shostakovich when we need a few string quartets in our darkness...

[MrGongGong]

Interestingly my wife, who is Russian and spent the first 30 years of her life living under communism, says that what we have now in the eu is not so different.

Oh dear

Really ?

I guess you must enjoy your mutual delusions

[MrGongGong]

Well, at the tender age of 19 I DID know the meaning of community and I could plainly see that it would end up as a bureaucratic monster so the first vote I ever cast was a resounding NO.
I was against it then and I've been against it ever since.

The "bureaucratic monster " is a bit of a non argument
HOW much bureaucracy would trying to negotiate a treaty for EVERY country in the world, for EVERY commodity involve ?

Oooops I forgot

Nige reckons we can do that overnight ............... so none at all

[Serial_Apologist]

But I'm working class so I would get no votes.

And he looked up to him, because he's middle class.
And he looked down on him because he is upper class.

Etc etc...

[Cornet IV]

I think the answer to your question is fairly straight forward. Farage and his party are not seeking to dissolve the EU altogether, just withdrawal.

It sometimes is difficult to determine the aspirations of UKIP through the fog of polarising rhetoric but I think this is a fair assessment of their position. But in large measure I think the whole subject has been complicated by putting the cart before the horse.

I happily voted "yes" in the only referendum to have been held but all those years ago the subject at issue was one of establishing a trading partnership with the expanded Iron and Steel Confederation. Of course, the vile Ted Heath and the slippery Wilson knew exactly that the fundamental objective of this and similar pan-European associations was eventual political unity but this was kept very quiet; we were not told of that. The vote was in respect of some mercantile treaty and in pursuit of which we shamefully dumped the Commonwealth. If I and the rest of those who voted similarly had realised that we were being hoodwinked, naturally the outcome of the exercise would have been the reverse.

Farage and the Clegglet (who obviously must be a Brusselsphile since his future there in an overpaid sinecure depends on this) debating things is so much speculation as without a plebiscite, it is all less than academic. When we are granted the only say so far allowed in the matter, the sting will be drawn and rational debate might follow.

I wonder why I'm rather less than sanguine about that . . . . .

[MrGongGong]

A little digging reveals this

http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm

Which was apparently sent to every house in the UK

The aims of the Common Market were stated as

To bring together the peoples of Europe.
To raise living standards and improve working conditions.
To promote growth and boost world trade.
To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.
To help maintain peace and freedom.

I guess people had difficulty understanding the words and would like another go?

Now most people have had relationships that they later regret but pretending that somehow there was a trick or conspiracy is disingenuous.

After 23 years of being a parent I would like to say that it's been an interesting experiment but I would like to go back to how things were before. I've also been looking at my friends who don't have children and notice that they have nice cars, more holidays and a much higher standard of living so I think i'll choose that if you don't mind. Oh, one other thing, after we are divorced i'll be round every Friday with my washing and for the sex, I liked that bit............

[James Wonnacott]

Yes, that midnight EU knock at the door and being dragged off to Lubyanka

I said 30 years, not 60.
I think she's referring to the mass of unnecessary pen-pushers supposedly running things of which they have no knowledge (e.g. NHS) and the fact that we are not allowed to express opinions which do not fit in with those of our masters without being excluded from certain professions, adopting or fostering children etc. and the brainwashing which takes place in our schools and via the media.
I can only repeat what she tells me. I wasn't there, after all.

[MrGongGong]

the brainwashing which takes place in our schools.

An example ?
A real one would be nice :-)

[James Wonnacott]

PHSE, Citizenship.

[James Wonnacott]

History, for that matter.

[Beef Oven!]

It sometimes is difficult to determine the aspirations of UKIP through the fog of polarising rhetoric but I think this is a fair assessment of their position. But in large measure I think the whole subject has been complicated by putting the cart before the horse.

I happily voted "yes" in the only referendum to have been held but all those years ago the subject at issue was one of establishing a trading partnership with the expanded Iron and Steel Confederation. Of course, the vile Ted Heath and the slippery Wilson knew exactly that the fundamental objective of this and similar pan-European associations was eventual political unity but this was kept very quiet; we were not told of that. The vote was in respect of some mercantile treaty and in pursuit of which we shamefully dumped the Commonwealth. If I and the rest of those who voted similarly had realised that we were being hoodwinked, naturally the outcome of the exercise would have been the reverse.

Farage and the Clegglet (who obviously must be a Brusselsphile since his future there in an overpaid sinecure depends on this) debating things is so much speculation as without a plebiscite, it is all less than academic. When we are granted the only say so far allowed in the matter, the sting will be drawn and rational debate might follow.

I wonder why I'm rather less than sanguine about that . . . . .

I recognise much of that. Most people that I know/knew voted 'in'. I wasn't quite old enough to vote, but it was a hot topic in my O' Level economics class. Our economics master steered us through the issues and, as I remember, we were nearly unanimous in wanting 'in' the Common Market. I certainly was.

As you point out, a pan-European political union with overriding law-making powers and a European parliament overseeing things, was either not part of the plan, or was concealed (such an outcome could not have been understood from the sensible, but glib objectives of fraternity, helping poor regions of the world, improving working conditions etc).

[french frank]

The problem with some of these statements - the proportion of dictatorial laws that we are now forced to accept, the proportion of our well-earned contributions lost to corruption, the number of pen-pushing employees keeping the whole thing running can be factually disproved. The accusations are there but the replies are never set in any sort of context: "X costs £Xm pounds" where £Xm is a tiny fraction of the sums involved.

People think that England (and probably Wales) would be 'better off' in some way negotiating their own trade deals, belching out their pollution over Europe, supporting an NHS that will pay for all their health problems (in the unlikely event that they'd like to visit Europe), no cooperation with Europol in their fight with global crime.

I agree fully that there is a 'socialistic' notion to a Europe that seeks to raise living standards among all the nations, but then, I would support an England that sought to introduce similar levels throughout this country too. But at every level - local, national, global - there are those who take the idea of the 'survival of the fittest' very literally. Especially if they feel very fit.

[Ariosto]

The problem with some of these statements - the proportion of dictatorial laws that we are now forced to accept, the proportion of our well-earned contributions lost to corruption, the number of pen-pushing employees keeping the whole thing running can be factually disproved. The accusations are there but the replies are never set in any sort of context: "X costs £Xm pounds" where £Xm is a tiny fraction of the sums involved.

People think that England (and probably Wales) would be 'better off' in some way negotiating their own trade deals, belching out their pollution over Europe, supporting an NHS that will pay for all their health problems (in the unlikely event that they'd like to visit Europe), no cooperation with Europol in their fight with global crime.

I agree fully that there is a 'socialistic' notion to a Europe that seeks to raise living standards among all the nations, but then, I would support an England that sought to introduce similar levels throughout this country too. But at every level - local, national, global - there are those who take the idea of the 'survival of the fittest' very literally. Especially if they feel very fit.

That's fine as far as it goes and I would support most of those aims as I once considered myself a Socialist, but it does not address the problems that membership has brought us in the UK. We can't sack anyone in Brussels, apart from our own Euro MP's and does anyone bother with them? If we get bad laws here we can theoretically sack the government at the next General Election, and then vote replacements in. I worry that we will lose our Parliament altogether one day in favour of a pan Europe parliament which will rule us from afar.

P S On another note (G sharp demi-semiquaver ...) I was wondering why the Politics and Current Affairs platform does not come up on "What's New?"

[Beef Oven!]

The problem with some of these statements - the proportion of dictatorial laws that we are now forced to accept, the proportion of our well-earned contributions lost to corruption, the number of pen-pushing employees keeping the whole thing running can be factually disproved. The accusations are there but the replies are never set in any sort of context: "X costs £Xm pounds" where £Xm is a tiny fraction of the sums involved.

People think that England (and probably Wales) would be 'better off' in some way negotiating their own trade deals, belching out their pollution over Europe, supporting an NHS that will pay for all their health problems (in the unlikely event that they'd like to visit Europe), no cooperation with Europol in their fight with global crime.

I agree fully that there is a 'socialistic' notion to a Europe that seeks to raise living standards among all the nations, but then, I would support an England that sought to introduce similar levels throughout this country too. But at every level - local, national, global - there are those who take the idea of the 'survival of the fittest' very literally. Especially if they feel very fit.

Many, possibly nearly all, of the 'European ideals' are things that I agree with and would want to support. For me it's not really about those issues. The issue is more about how positive political outcomes are achieved. Being dragooned into a European-wide government, possibly en-route to world government is not, in my opinion, the way to do it.

Your caveat regarding 'survival of the fittest' is one that should not be ignored.

I welcome your acknowledgement that a Europe that seeks to raise the living standards of all nations is not exclusively socialistic.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Many, possibly nearly all, of the 'European ideals' are things that I agree with and would want to support. For me it's not really about those issues. The issue is more about how positive political outcomes are achieved. Being dragooned into a European-wide government, possibly en-route to world government is not, in my opinion, the way to do it.

Your caveat regarding 'survival of the fittest' is one that should not be ignored.

I welcome your acknowledgement that a Europe that seeks to raise the living standards of all nations is not exclusively socialistic.

The European "Project" did once have a strong social agenda, mainly hyped through the Delors period as a counterbalance to the neo-liberalism of the Single Market...

But that was "long ago and far away" as Chet Baker once sang....just take a look at Greece, Spain, Portugal etc. Neo liberalism on steroids.