Student loans - a fiscal time-bomb

[ardcarp]

It was with some satisfaction that I read this:

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/mar/21/student-loans-unpaid-debt-problem-universities-adrian-bailey

If the government (any government) gets screwed because hardly anyone ever earns enough to pay off student debts, then it's music to the ears of people like me who think it was a MORAL OUTRAGE to charge for higher education in the first place.

[amateur51]

It was with some satisfaction that I read this:

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/mar/21/student-loans-unpaid-debt-problem-universities-adrian-bailey

If the government (any government) gets screwed because hardly anyone ever earns enough to pay off student debts, then it's music to the ears of people like me who think it was a MORAL OUTRAGE to charge for higher education in the first place.

Well said, ardcarp.

[teamsaint]

I was talking to somebody recently whose son was off to do a 4 year education degree to become a sports teacher.
They and he had calculated that at the top of the classroom teacher scale he would never pay the debt. They thus figured that it would pay him to borrow the full amount, pay for the best accommodation etc, since the debt would be written off anyway.

The plans never made financial sense as far as I could see, since the vastly increased fees had to be loaned out of government finance in the first instance.

Universities are money making machines, and not for the students. Check out VC's salary levels.#


(Vice chancellors, not the Viet Cong).

[french frank]

Universities are money making machines, and not for the students. Check out VC's salary levels.#


(Vice chancellors, not the Viet Cong).

I can't agree with that. Each university only has one Vice Chancellor so, although it may be outrageous for VCs to earn more than even the Controller of Radio 3, that doesn't make the universities money making machines.

An expansion in HE institutions and in targets for the percentage of graduates in the population and efforts to recruit more disadvantaged students changed the scene from the days when a tiny proportion of the ( middle class) population got their university education free.

Interesting timeline on who said what and when.

[eighthobstruction]

I reckon if you look back to board posts of 2010-11 you will find people saying that this was likely to happen....and it has also stopped people (my son for one) not going to FE....

couple of links from Cadaja....http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n20/stefan-collini/sold-out

http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/university-chiefs-under-fire-for-huge-pay-rises-after-tuition-fee-hikes-9034893.html

[amateur51]

I can't agree with that. Each university only has one Vice Chancellor so, although it may be outrageous for VCs to earn more than even the Controller of Radio 3, that doesn't make the universities money making machines.

An expansion in HE institutions and in targets for the percentage of graduates in the population and efforts to recruit more disadvantaged students changed the scene from the days when a tiny proportion of the ( middle class) population got their university education free.

Interesting timeline on who said what and when.

The timeline does not include the establishment of the current situation whereby lecturers are often requiired to explore lines of research that will bring in money to the establishment. This has tended to reinforce the movement from 'learning to think' towards 'learning to do' and the interests of the funders (often big business) become the educational priorities. Important non-educational aspects of running a University, such as administrative support, often go unfunded as the funders do not see it as being in their interest.

[amateur51]

Sometimes rather heavy going, this is nonetheless a useful article on University funding ...

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n20/stefan-collini/sold-out

[french frank]

The timeline does not include the establishment of the current situation whereby lecturers are often requiired to explore lines of research that will bring in money to the establishment. This has tended to reinforce the movement from 'learning to think' towards 'learning to do' and the interests of the funders (often big business) become the educational priorities. Important non-educational aspects of running a University, such as administrative support, often go unfunded as the funders do not see it as being in their interest.

It has always been the case that research is funded by those who will in some way benefit from it, and therefore the research undertaken is dictated by the funders. But that only applies significantly to scientific/medical research. Who's going to fund the arts or those branches of learning where research is essentially the development of knowledge? Administration is just another area. And not just staff but libraries and other materials. Universities go cap in hand to their graduates: there is no unlimited cash cow ready to pour in whatever universities ask for.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Now that seemingly nearly everyone can get into university, degrees have becomes devalued, and to have one no longer brings about the likelihood of a successful career. The fact that no-one could see that in the 1990s says much for the short-sightedness of politicians, educationalists and society as a whole. Education should be free for all, but not for Mickey Mouse degrees.

[amateur51]

Now that seemingly nearly everyone can get into university, degrees have becomes devalued, and to have one no longer brings about the likelihood of a successful career. The fact that no-one could see that in the 1990s says much for the short-sightedness of politicians, educationalists and society as a whole. Education should be free for all, but not for Mickey Mouse degrees.

There's another oft-used rarely explored expression - a Mickey Mouse degree. Does it reflect on the teaching, the subject matter and its perceived usefulness/value, the likelihood of getting a job, the centre of education, the sheer number of such degrees, etc?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

There's another oft-used rarely explored expression - a Mickey Mouse degree. Does it reflect on the teaching, the subject matter and its perceived usefulness/value, the likelihood of getting a job, the centre of education, the sheer number of such degrees, etc?

It means different things to different people. The teaching is unlikely to be the issue, but the subject matter and its perceived value might be considered doubtful. I have several close relatives and friends with such degrees. But are they really degrees, or has it just become a universal label?

[Barbirollians]

Friends of mine in the universities have been warning of this for some time . Default levels are going to break through the level when the effect of the tuition fee hike will be to cost us more long term. It is already costing more short term than the old scheme of lower fees and the general teaching grant .

[teamsaint]

I can't agree with that. Each university only has one Vice Chancellor so, although it may be outrageous for VCs to earn more than even the Controller of Radio 3, that doesn't make the universities money making machines.

An expansion in HE institutions and in targets for the percentage of graduates in the population and efforts to recruit more disadvantaged students changed the scene from the days when a tiny proportion of the ( middle class) population got their university education free.

Interesting timeline on who said what and when.

the example of VCs is just that, an example.

Students get a really poor deal from universities when the money stuff goes wrong. My daughter was threatened with eviction even though her hall fees had been paid as requested, and no reminder issued. she was very upset, what with being 18 and threatened with eviction.
I could give more examples. The pressure on 3rd years to go on to masters degrees at the same Uni when they have little means of funding other than more loans is another.

I agree that the huge expansion of the sector has been beneficial to many, despite all the Mickey Mouse jibes.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

[QUOTE=teamsaint;387513 The pressure on 3rd years to go on to masters degrees at the same Uni when they have little means of funding other than more loans is another.[/QUOTE]

This is all to do with the lack of currency value of today's first degrees, following years of degree inflation.