The politics of the left in the UK

[ahinton]

That would be true were the existence of capital inevitably synonymous with capitalism - a mistake which is often made. The issue is not one of capital, but its ownership.

I know and apprecaite that, of course, but as long as any assets are considered to have a value, someone somewhere will use that for his/her own ends and seek to gain advantage therefrom and, whilst capital and capitalism are indeed not synonymous, the latter has a long-standing and, I think, unshakeable tradition of seizing control of the former; again, whilst ownership of assets (capital) is indeed the issue, thee is no reliable way in which any person, corporation, or government can assume and exert total control over who owns what or over what any give asset is deemed to be worth at any given time.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

"hard working families" or "working class" an interesting take on the slogans

[jean]

"70% of us still identify as working class", she says. 70%? Is that really true?

I thought one of the problems the Left had was that so few people thought of themselves as working class any more.

[ahinton]

"70% of us still identify as working class", she says. 70%? Is that really true?

I thought one of the problems the Left had was that so few people thought of themselves as working class any more.

Only one of them, but yes, that's my impression as well. It's very hard to believe that so high a percentage of people think of themselves like that these days, especially given the likelihood that less people would readily identify themselves as belonging to any particular "class" these days. "Hard working families" has become so worn a politicians' cliché that it's a wonder that there's any of them left! It's all rather daft, anyway, for a number of reasons, not least the "hard-working" senior manager on a decent salary who might just consider him/herself to be "working class" because he/she works until he/she is made made redundant and suddenly has no work - is that person suddenly no longer "working class" or a member of a "hard working family"? I think that there was rather more class-consciousness in the more deferential society of several decades ago than is the case now.

[jean]

It appears we are wrong.

[french frank]

"70% of us still identify as working class", she says. 70%? Is that really true?

I thought one of the problems the Left had was that so few people thought of themselves as working class any more.

Possibly the opposite where there is a right-wing, unpopular government. Does that make people inclined to swing back and associate themselves with their roots/origins/sympathies? I thought it had been the case for quite a while that many of the left intelligentsia associated themselves with their sympathies, and perhaps their families from a few generations earlier, rather than their own professional or economic situation - perhaps this is the same phenomenon? People feel/are less affluent than they were.

[Greg Dyke referred to himself as 'elevated working class'.)

[ahinton]

It appears we are wrong.

But does it really?


"The latest edition of the British Social Attitudes Survey found that, when pressed, six out of 10 people described themselves as working class, rather than middle class.

Only 34 per cent actively described themselves as "middle class", a proportion unchanged in 30 years".

OK, but how many people were asked and where was the survey carried out?

"Yet, the report says, that the true picture could be the direct opposite.

It notes that when respondents were analysed based on their professional status, 59 per cent could be ranked "objectively" as middle class"

The only conclusion that can realistically be drawn from this is that the survey's results are inconclusive, potentially misleading, confusing and uncertain, especially when read in conjunction with the same author's piece at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...our-place.html.

[Serial_Apologist]

I think Selina Todd's Grauniad article is excellent; and she could have added a further aspect of working class consciousness to that of not seeing work as redemptive per se , namely so-called greed, or the impulse to make the most of what fortunes offer while the time is ripe - "greed" being deeply ensconced into an evolved mentality, one that is directly and realistically related to the insecurity of living and making a living under capitalism, and which can only be protected by means of collective self-organisation in the workplace, where its power can really make its mark in saying, see you can't do without us!! These are enduring values in a world where one day we are told to spend spend spend on the latest obsolesent fashion bling and the next to not price ourselves out of job markets but to save, save, save. For 3 decades the Japanese proletariat did the latter; but did it result in gratitude in return for hard work by the boss class? Of course not, because as she could have added, productivity in an age of advancing technology depends not on hard work but on productive machinery: the surplus value to be extracted from ever fewer human units. And here too, lies the appeal of the image that sees itself reflected in things of passing value.

Edit: I wonder if Ian Hislop will be dealing with this issue of the redemptive power of work in his mini-series on BBC2 on Wednesday nights - the tenor of which is mostly predicated on the British everlasting love affair with the past. There's a big subject for discussion there, one related imv to differentiated attitudes to work being directly class-related to, and flowing from, the individual's alienation from the fruits of his or her production, an historical process William Morris saw himself as seeking to pre-empt in the Arts & Crafts movement. Though Marx objected, he did not (and could not) predict the psycho-social implications that would arise from this alienation. Perhaps the hippies came closest to practically defining the lineaments of a possible alternative to the rat race.

[Serial_Apologist]

But does it really?


"The latest edition of the British Social Attitudes Survey found that, when pressed, six out of 10 people described themselves as working class, rather than middle class.

Only 34 per cent actively described themselves as "middle class", a proportion unchanged in 30 years".

OK, but how many people were asked and where was the survey carried out?

"Yet, the report says, that the true picture could be the direct opposite.

It notes that when respondents were analysed based on their professional status, 59 per cent could be ranked "objectively" as middle class"

The only conclusion that can realistically be drawn from this is that the survey's results are inconclusive, potentially misleading, confusing and uncertain, especially when read in conjunction with the same author's piece at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...our-place.html.

I think it's legitimate to speak of the progressive proletarianisation of the middle class; Marx predicted this over a hundred years ago, envisioning the trade unionisation of eg teachers and the medical profession.

[jean]

But aren't we talking here about how people perceive themselves?

[Serial_Apologist]

But aren't we talking here about how people perceive themselves?

Yes jean, this is what I'm trying to get across - probably very badly!!! - namely the intermediators of perception and self-perception, or what I would call "how capitalism perpetuates itself by making us see ourselves in its own image", or through its own images. This would be followed in a Marcusian vein by detailisations of how this operates, using religion, fashion, scapegoating, etc etc. Oliver James is a bit of a hero of mine!

Self-definitions are fine as far as they go, but it's probably best not to cling too hard to them.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

well people do see themselves as working class according to the British Social Attitudes Survey [the exemplar of good practice in survey methodology and independence from interest groups] however other methods may classify them in whatever new categories ..

it is clear to me that the working class that my grandparents belonged to in the 1910-1930s was not the working class my mother and father belonged to in the 1940 to 1960s and has changed substantively and significantly since in material, social and behavioural terms ... for my grandparents, highly active in union and political activities in the North East, there was no representation in Parliament ... i doubt my Grandmother Isabel could vote for most of her life..... my mother and father were both voters for Labour [and perhaps the CGB before the war] my Pa being an active unionist and local politician until his passing in '66 .... there was a NEC worth getting on in the Labour Party then ... i rather feel that the workers have been disenfranchised by the politics of the last three decades and that being 'working class' now is a recognition of that circumstance but without any, or little, wish or ability to fight to regain the franchise and influence that our grandparents and parents fought for and notably won in the years from 45 - 75 ...

this is from the Huff Post

Predicting the results of the general election in 2015, The Times newspaper quoted Bailey as saying the only trace of the Liberal Democrats will be "a bunch of flowers taped to some railings."

David Cameron, on the other hand, was poetically described as a "congealed, laminated weasel."

Ukip, he argued, are a troupe of "sozzled berks" whose only policies include an electrified fence at Dover and "no women in the bar area."

Ed Miliband was rather tragically described as being "like a plastic bag caught in a tree."

"No one knows how he got up there and no one can be bothered to get him down."

[Serial_Apologist]

well people do see themselves as working class according to the British Social Attitudes Survey [the exemplar of good practice in survey methodology and independence from interest groups] however other methods may classify them in whatever new categories ..

it is clear to me that the working class that my grandparents belonged to in the 1910-1930s was not the working class my mother and father belonged to in the 1940 to 1960s and has changed substantively and significantly since in material, social and behavioural terms ... for my grandparents, highly active in union and political activities in the North East, there was no representation in Parliament ... i doubt my Grandmother Isabel could vote for most of her life..... my mother and father were both voters for Labour [and perhaps the CGB before the war] my Pa being an active unionist and local politician until his passing in '66 .... there was a NEC worth getting on in the Labour Party then ... i rather feel that the workers have been disenfranchised by the politics of the last three decades and that being 'working class' now is a recognition of that circumstance but without any, or little, wish or ability to fight to regain the franchise and influence that our grandparents and parents fought for and notably won in the years from 45 - 75 ...

this is from the Huff Post

<thumbs up smiley>

I especially like the plastic bag caught in a tree image!

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i would like to believe this will come to pass

The response of Labour under Ed Miliband’s leadership is different. We refuse to accept that there is nothing to be done about the snapping of the link between the fortunes of the economy and those of working people. Britain's problems with productivity, competitiveness and living standards are interconnected, and demand a thoroughgoing reform of how our economy works. That’s why Ed Miliband has said that the government he leads will prioritise a transformation of our banking system, resetting the energy market, a new target of building 200,000 new homes a year, a revolution in apprenticeships and technical education in our schools, and a historic transfer of many of the levers of economic policy from Whitehall to city regions and county-regions.

an interesting article by Lord Wood of Anfield aka Stewart Wood
i t would be easier to believe if he had been able to do without the peerage eh ....

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

By way of addressing security beyond the workplace, his most compelling suggestion is a basic citizen's income, payable to all, which would increase the bargaining power of people at the low end, and by cutting across the orthodox benefit systems' serial poverty traps, actually increase the incentive to work.

from a review by John Harris of Guy Standing's A Precariat Charter which looks positive and interesting