Not like the rest at all ?

[Beef Oven!]

I'm glad you raised that point. UKIP seem to think an exit from Europe would mean EU Directives, regulations, etc., would just be discarded/ignored. As one example in their election manifesto it was stated that the EU directive on landfill and waste wouldn't be adhered to thereby going back to landfill and reducing council tax for all (their words, not mine), a step so retrograde it's unbelievable. Ditto they'd repeal (their words) the Human Rights Act, all the Common Agricultural Policy, etc., etc. Don't they realise they are living in cuckoo land.

As for Kipper MEPs being honest - on News Night, just after the election, the newly elected (he replaced someone who stood down) Member for Wales was asked if he'd now fight for Welsh jobs, money, etc., in Brussels. He replied that he wouldn't as Brussels was just another layer of bureaucracy and nothing could be achieved. So he was asked why bother to turn up, why not donate his salary to a Welsh charity? He replied that he was donating a percentage of the salary to The Party to fight on, that all MEPs were pledged to do this (he also omitted pre-election to mention he was a Mormon and a percentage of his salary would go to the Church of the Latter Day Saints) He rather graciously also stated that they had changedf their minds and would not now abolish the Welsh Assembly. I see now from various Twitter feeds that they intend to target 6 seats in the Senedd and destroy it from within and restore Wales to the bosom of England.

Farage said he'd got rid of the fruitcakes and loonies but I don't think so. In January their Education Spokesman, Derek Clark, again said that the teaching of climate change linked to CO2 emissions would be banned in schools.

Regarding your point about landfill, if you don't agree with it, that's fine. But do we really need an unelected superstate to oversee all countries in their environmental policies? What have Labour, Conservatives and LibDems been doing over the last 25 years? Are Labour, Conservatives and LibDems incapable of delivering the sort of policy that the electorate wants?

Maybe drop the 'kipper' term - it's not helpful, as has been pointed out by the moderator.

[MrGongGong]

unelected superstate

Hey, guess what ?
Have you forgotten the elections so soon ?
Fetishising choice is a dangerous business

I love this

Your points are without merit and reactionary

75% of our laws AREN'T made in Brussels no matter whether you think telling the truth is "without merit" or not ....:laugh:

[Beef Oven!]

Hey, guess what ?
Have you forgotten the elections so soon ?
Fetishising choice is a dangerous business

I love this



75% of our laws AREN'T made in Brussels no matter whether you think telling the truth is "without merit" or not ....:laugh:

'75% of our laws' is what a past German chancellor estimated it to be and the UKIP have grabbed it as a quasi-numerical battle-cry.

I (not the UKIP, perhaps) believe that 100% of our laws are ''made in Brussels''. I take a qualitative view. 100% of British laws can be made within the UK, so long as they fit the EU specifications. Woe betide any British law, be it a 'poop-scoop' bylaw, or legislation on UK benefits entitlement that does not fit the EU ideological template - it will be overturned. Fact. Pure and simple.

Go and watch some football and learn something - I can't be wasting my time with bloody reactionaries who seek to preserve the status quo and the EU super-elite. And if you want to be European, support Italy and watch the Andrea Pirlo-masterclass.

[Richard Barrett]

the UKIP have grabbed it as a quasi-numerical battle-cry.

It isn't "quasi-numerical", it's a number - and it's wrong, and we know it's wrong, and they know it's wrong, but quite apart from that the number of EU regulations affecting daily life in the UK is not going to change if the country leaves the EU, the only thing that will change is that no elected representatives of the UK will be able to influence them. It doesn't matter whether the UK signs up to any "stupid deal" with the EU. As MrGG says, MEPs are actually elected, even those who choose to shirk the responsibilities placed on them by voters. I don't know what "status quo" you think people here are defending. There are many arguments against the EU from a left perspective which I would strongly agree with. However the arguments put forward by Farage and UKIP are based on lies, and as such they constantly prove themselves to be in fact not in any way fundamentally different from the established parties; and you can't dodge this central issue by telling people to watch football.

As for immigration and unemployment, the connection made between the two depends on the fallacy that there's a fixed amount of stuff to be done so that when more people arrive someone is inevitably put out of work; whereas in fact (and this is easy to check), immigrants tend to be net contributors to the economy, thereby expanding the amount of work there is. If you have any real evidence that EU immigration causes unemployment, put up or shut up as they say.

[french frank]

the EU ideological template

'Ideological', as in: 'respecting justice and human rights'?

[MrGongGong]

'75% of our laws' is what a past German chancellor estimated it to be and the UKIP have grabbed it as a quasi-numerical battle-cry.

And it's WRONG

reactionaries who seek to preserve the status quo

Yeah right
I'm planning on fattening up my children so they wont fit up chimneys

[Anna]

MEPs are actually elected, even those who choose to shirk the responsibilities placed on them by voters.

And, if you look at voting records those for UKIP are very poor. But sometimes they do vote and here is an shining example of their 'ideology' replacing common sense and compassion:

In January 2014 six UKIP MEPs, including Nigel Farage, voted against an EU motion to clamp down on the illegal trade in ivory. Aside from Farage, the other five UKIP MEPs to vote against this motion were Paul Nuttall, Gerrard Batten, John Stuart, William Dartmouth and Derek Roland.

Thankfully the motion passed by 671 votes to 14. Not only are UKIP MEPs the laziest in the whole of Europe, when they do bother to turn up to vote, they vote in a way that the vast majority of British people would find abhorrent if they knew about UKIP’s voting record on this.

The UKIP excuse for voting against the Combating Wildlife Crime motion is that, as explained by Mr. Farage, they have an ideological obligation to vote against any piece of legislation that would give the EU more powers (and what does it matter if another elephant is killed when you can say you made a stand against Brussels?)

[Beef Oven!]

It isn't "quasi-numerical", it's a number - and it's wrong, and we know it's wrong, and they know it's wrong, but quite apart from that the number of EU regulations affecting daily life in the UK is not going to change if the country leaves the EU, the only thing that will change is that no elected representatives of the UK will be able to influence them. It doesn't matter whether the UK signs up to any "stupid deal" with the EU. As MrGG says, MEPs are actually elected, even those who choose to shirk the responsibilities placed on them by voters. I don't know what "status quo" you think people here are defending. There are many arguments against the EU from a left perspective which I would strongly agree with. However the arguments put forward by Farage and UKIP are based on lies, and as such they constantly prove themselves to be in fact not in any way fundamentally different from the established parties; and you can't dodge this central issue by telling people to watch football.

As for immigration and unemployment, the connection made between the two depends on the fallacy that there's a fixed amount of stuff to be done so that when more people arrive someone is inevitably put out of work; whereas in fact (and this is easy to check), immigrants tend to be net contributors to the economy, thereby expanding the amount of work there is. If you have any real evidence that EU immigration causes unemployment, put up or shut up as they say.

75% is not a number, as you well know. My reference to your reference about immigration was not about unemployment, but about big business benefitting from, and demanding a plentiful supply of labour to keep operating costs down, and hence maintaining supernormal profits (as I'm sure you know). So you shouldn't be telling me to shut up, not just on account that I haven't said anything in the first place.

[Beef Oven!]

'Ideological', as in: 'respecting justice and human rights'?

No, I was thinking more of the undemocratic fascist ideology, as shown, for example, in the treatment of Greece and Ireland. That's to say nothing of appointing an Italian prime-minister for them.

[MrGongGong]

75% is not a number, as you well know.

And it's definitely NOT the percentage of UK laws that are made in Brussels
Surely lying to get elected should disallow the votes who voted for the liar ?

[Beef Oven!]

And it's definitely NOT the percentage of UK laws that are made in Brussels
Surely lying to get elected should disallow the votes who voted for the liar ?

Yes, as I've said in post #423, 100 is the real number - 100%

Glad we've cleared that one up.

[MrGongGong]

Yes, as I've said in post #423, 100 is the real number - 100%

Glad we've cleared that one up.

You made that one up as well
The EU insist we drive on the left hand side of the road?

Even (as Richard points out) if we really did leave the EU by your "logic" we would STILL have a vast % of our laws "made" in this way
You are simply right about Combichrist and Wrong about this

whats that thing about repeating lies ?

[Beef Oven!]

You made that one up as well
The EU insist we drive on the left hand side of the road?

Even (as Richard points out) if we really did leave the EU by your "logic" we would STILL have a vast % of our laws "made" in this way
You are simply right about Combichrist and Wrong about this

whats that thing about repeating lies ?

We'll just have to leave it there, there's nowhere to go after 100%

Please choose a Combichrist number, and comply (you know the one I mean).

[Richard Barrett]

Moving right on... as I said it shouldn't really matter to Farage et al. what the percentage of EU laws affecting life in the UK is because extracting the UK from the EU isn't going to change it. Regarding UKIP's policy towards immigration, I don't believe that they have any objection to "big business benefitting from, and demanding a plentiful supply of labour to keep operating costs down" - various of them seem quite happy to use immigrant labour themselves, as we've seen recently, and I would imagine that their general attitude towards big business is to lick its corporate behind just like the major parties do.

So in the end what it's all about is whipping up prejudice against foreigners for no reason other than that they're foreign, right? And whether Farage himself is or isn't a racist (I have the impression it rather depends on who he's talking to), this policy surely encourages racism. Which is why I think it's entirely legitimate to see UKIP as a symptom of a tendency towards racism and far-right politics in Europe. IMO this is a far more serious problem than whether Britain is or isn't in the EU.

[MrGongGong]

We'll just have to leave it there, there's nowhere to go after 100%

Please choose a Combichrist number, and comply (you know the one I mean).

A much greater Nigel suggested 11