Not like the rest at all ?

[MrGongGong]

this obsession with nige's ragbag army is all distraction.

It might be
but there is a real danger of somnambulism

and i'm genuinely puzzled that some folks really DO seem to think that the smokie army IS an "Alternative"
much in the way that so much "difficult" music seems rather tame when you actually listen to it

[jean]

But back to the thread topic.

http://twitpic.com/show/thumb/e2f5ip.gif

[french frank]

and i'm genuinely puzzled that some folks really DO seem to think that the smokie army IS an "Alternative"

It's a not uncommon feature of the British electorate to harp on one idea, a kind of tunnel vision, and no amount of argument will change their minds. If the opinion polls are correct, 'independence' for England is what 'we' want. Meanwhile, this was an item from my MP's regular e-news:

"During the Easter recess I visited Srebrenica in my role as a government minister to learn and reflect on the Bosnian civil war, leading a delegation of young community leaders most of whom were infants in the 1990s. Our visit was organised by the charity, Remembering Srebrenica. The massacre at Srebrenica in 1995, when 8,372 Bosnian Muslim men and boys were murdered by the Bosnian Serb army, is recognised as an act of genocide in the same way as other post-1945 conflicts in Cambodia, Rwanda and Darfur. The government is funding the charity to enable over 700 young British community leaders to visit Bosnia to reflect on how advanced countries can so easily slip into barbarism and also to make a pledge to enhance community relations in our diverse 21st century Britain. As part of our three day visit we visited a memorial at Potocari. The field has 8,372 white marble columns, in the traditional Islamic design of gravestones. There is also a frieze, with each of the names of the victims. There I was introduced to one of the most remarkable group of people I have met in my life, the Srebrenica Mothers. Most are widows as well as grieving mothers. We sat and listened in stunned silence as they told their stories. One woman had lost fifty five relatives and the encounter will probably be the longest lasting memory of the delegation. I also met with the President, Bakir Izetbegovic, to discuss British government support for Bosnian membership of the EU and NATO. I believe that this is the political hope for the future. Slovenia and Croatia are already members of the EU. Two years ago I was in Macedonia, helping with their EU accession preparations, whilst Serbia is also likely to be a member soon."

[ahinton]

I also met with the President, Bakir Izetbegovic, to discuss British government support for Bosnian membership of the EU and NATO. I believe that this is the political hope for the future. Slovenia and Croatia are already members of the EU. Two years ago I was in Macedonia, helping with their EU accession preparations, whilst Serbia is also likely to be a member soon."

Until the recent Ukrainian débâcle, plenty of Eastern European states looked et to express their respective desires to join EU eventually, incuding those ex-Yugoslav states tha have not already joined. It will remain to be seen to what extent the events in Ukraine put the brakes on these aspirations but as long as the problems there do not develop and expand it will probably be back to normal for this - Albania, Belarus, Moldova and Ukraine itself, for starters, followed by Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and the rest. By the time that Turkey has also joined, the political climate in the Middle East will certainly have changed as a consequence of this expanded EU -and there's no need for such expansion to stop there...

[french frank]

It will remain to be seen to what extent the events in Ukraine put the brakes on these aspirations

The Balkans aren't quite in Russia's back yard, nor did they form part of the USSR, unlike Ukraine. Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman influences were historically stronger.

[ahinton]

The Balkans aren't quite in Russia's back yard, nor did they form part of the USSR, unlike Ukraine. Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman influences were historically stronger.

True, of course, but I still wonder if, especially given Ukraine's sheer size, certain other nations might decide to wait with their hearts in their mouths to see just what plans Russia might want to have for Eastern Europe as a whole and how effectively, if at all, they might be able to implement any of them, before proceeding towards EU membership applications - that's all; that said, EU could possibly expand immensely if unhindered by the outcomes of such issues as this.

[Serial_Apologist]

Until the recent Ukrainian débâcle, plenty of Eastern European states looked et to express their respective desires to join EU eventually, incuding those ex-Yugoslav states tha have not already joined. It will remain to be seen to what extent the events in Ukraine put the brakes on these aspirations but as long as the problems there do not develop and expand it will probably be back to normal for this - Albania, Belarus, Moldova and Ukraine itself, for starters, followed by Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and the rest. By the time that Turkey has also joined, the political climate in the Middle East will certainly have changed as a consequence of this expanded EU -and there's no need for such expansion to stop there...

Should any individual member wish to propose or obstruct change, chances for getting agreement are progressively diminished the more countries join the EU. Why cannot anybody here, apart from myself and teamsaint, see this is just a means devised by the international bourgeoisie to rationalise its global domain, carving its sphere of operations into three dominant power blocs regardless of the interests of ordinary people and democratic accountability? The ostensible absence of any mainstream left-of-centre political opposition or move to exit the EU is the most dismal aspect of all this, and in the existing balance of class relations is bound to lead to the rise of far right, since such organisations' ideological self-predication on nation states and their mythological autonomy are made to appear the only remaining means of defense.

[ahinton]

Should any individual member wish to propose or obstruct change, chances for getting agreement are progressively diminished the more countries join the EU. Why cannot anybody here, apart from myself and teamsaint, see this is just a means devised by the international bourgeoisie to rationalise its global domain, carving its sphere of operations into three dominant power blocs regardless of the interests of ordinary people and democratic accountability? The ostensible absence of any mainstream left-of-centre political opposition or move to exit the EU is the most dismal aspect of all this, and in the existing balance of class relations is bound to lead to the rise of far right, since such organisations' ideological self-predication on nation states and their mythological autonomy are made to appear the only remaining means of defense.

Oh, I think that there are plenty of people who do indeed recognise this; it's just that such recognition goes hand in hand with - as Schönberg put it in a very different context - "you shall not worship the small" and this takes precedence over any other consideration; there is a widespread fear, no doubt fotered by the sheer size of US, China and (today to a lesser extent) Russia that Europe believe that there is a need for it to be as large and as united as possible within reason. It's not just about EU, though, as FF pointed out; it's also NATO membership. I'm not sure that any rise of the far right tht might occur (if indeed it did so) would take especially kindly, however, to the notion of a constantly expanding EU any more than some on the left would do.

[french frank]

Why cannot anybody here, apart from myself and teamsaint, see this is just a means devised by the international bourgeoisie to rationalise its global domain, carving its sphere of operations into three dominant power blocs regardless of the interests of ordinary people and democratic accountability?

Perhaps because other people see wider issues as well? About five years ago, I travelled in the train back from Sarajevo to Zagreb with a student who had been waved off by her parents in Sarajevo as she returned to her studies in the United States. She said she would probably never return to Bosnia permanently because she remained afraid that 'the same thing would happen again'. The repercussions of nationalist aspirations for a 'Greater Serbia' have been around for more than a century. You weigh up the apparent advantages and disadvantages of EU expansion and form your own conclusions.

[Serial_Apologist]

Oh, I think that there are plenty of people who do indeed recognise this; it's just that such recognition goes hand in hand with - as Schönberg put it in a very different context - "you shall not worship the small" and this takes precedence over any other consideration; there is a widespread fear, no doubt fotered by the sheer size of US, China and (today to a lesser extent) Russia that Europe believe that there is a need for it to be as large and as united as possible within reason. It's not just about EU, though, as FF pointed out; it's also NATO membership. I'm not sure that any rise of the far right tht might occur (if indeed it did so) would take especially kindly, however, to the notion of a constantly expanding EU any more than some on the left would do.

Maybe then we should be keeping tabs on UKIP's growing support with a view to entryism and forming a left opposition therein. After all, as MrGG reminds us, there is no longer any such thing as right and left, and, as Farrage reminds us, more and more of his support base now comes as much from disillusioned Labour as from Tory supporters. <wink>

[Serial_Apologist]

You weigh up the apparent advantages and disadvantages of EU expansion and form your own conclusions.

Well, you may; what I and others like me weigh up is the capitalist basis of that expansion, and it just gets more and more unwieldy, it really does. As a good internationalist I have nothing against countries uniting - its the basis that's questionable.

[ahinton]

Well, you may; what I and others like me weigh up is the capitalist basis of that expansion, and it just gets more and more unwieldy, it really does. As a good internationalist I have nothing against countries uniting - its the basis that's questionable.

"So what you're really saying is" (as James Naughtie would habitually have it!) that it's not so much the possibility of EU and/or NATO expansion that exercises you as the capitalism tht you perceive would underpin it; my only question about that is that the very same capitalist practice would hold sway at least as much and as widely as it does now whether or not EU or NATO might grow in numbers of member states. I remain to be convinced, therefore that the two are somehow synonymous or necessarily even inherently related to one another.

[ahinton]

Maybe then we should be keeping tabs on UKIP's growing support with a view to entryism and forming a left opposition therein. After all, as MrGG reminds us, there is no longer any such thing as right and left, and, as Farrage reminds us, more and more of his support base now comes as much from disillusioned Labour as from Tory supporters. <wink>

I think that we can keep - and indeed in many cases already are keeping - such tabs on UKIP's apparently growing support for a veriety of reasons, but I cannot help but wonder if this support will ultimately fizzle out in the way that the old SDP's did 35 or so years ago - in fact, I'd suggest that this is even more likely than in SDP's case because UKIP is still quite widely perceived (rightly or wrongly) - far more than was SDP - as something of a one-trick pony and, whatever it may attract in terms of numbers of voters at the next UK General Election, I for one would be astonished were it to secure sufficient seats in HoC to enable it to become a practical force of significance in British political life in its immediate aftermath.

[teamsaint]

Perhaps because other people see wider issues as well? About five years ago, I travelled in the train back from Sarajevo to Zagreb with a student who had been waved off by her parents in Sarajevo as she returned to her studies in the United States. She said she would probably never return to Bosnia permanently because she remained afraid that 'the same thing would happen again'. The repercussions of nationalist aspirations for a 'Greater Serbia' have been around for more than a century. You weigh up the apparent advantages and disadvantages of EU expansion and form your own conclusions.

You, S_A and I are all talking about wider issues. Our difference is, I think, in what we see as driving those wider issues. i would see international capital, and its (national and supra national) government tools as being the very basis of things like a drive for a "Greater Serbia". Looking back 100 years, its pretty hard not to see imperial ambition as being close to the heart of the causes of the First World War.
I don't pretend to know much about the drivers behind Serbian Nationalism, but it didn't appear out of nowhere.
Supranationalism, (Yugoslavia? EU?) may appear to and indeed may in fact keep the lid on conflict for a while, but competitive markets, neo imperialist ambitions, government fed paranoia, the arms trade and the drive by big money to get other bodies indebted will produce conflict in the end.

[french frank]

Well, you may; what I and others like me weigh up is the capitalist basis of that expansion, and it just gets more and more unwieldy, it really does. As a good internationalist I have nothing against countries uniting - its the basis that's questionable.

I think I would agree with what I think aeolium was saying recently (can't remember where). The response to what you say is likely to be, So what? What are you going to do about it (or rather, what can be done about it?). Pointing out where the fault lines are (and many of us who don't 'see' what you see would not disagree with you on that) doesn't go very far in improving anything. In the meantime, is the basis of the EU so flawed that you want to see it discontinued or just, like UKIP, that we should get out of it?