Not like the rest at all ?

[Beef Oven!]

you missed your generalising bit before that

Huh?

[MrGongGong]

I don't believe there's any conspiracy.
Nigel Farage in all his awfulness is good copy, that's all.

Exactly
a character like that fits the script in a Mat Crawford style

[teamsaint]

of course the "conspiracy" , if there is one, might be to discredit anti EU sentiments, by attaching them to people and sentiments that are unattractive to mainstream liberal thinking.

[jean]

That sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

[teamsaint]

That sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

your choice of words. Its an unhelpful catch all phrase used to discredit particular lines of thought , in my view.


Its a feasible scenario though. It might be a very sensible tactic if you had major pro EU interests, and were worried about opposition.

Of course you would have to be confident that groups like UKIP will disintegrate eventually, due to lack of any cohesive policies, but it IS possible.

politicians and others with power get up to all sorts of tricks to preserve position and power. The idea that somebody might want to head off liberal anti EU sentiment by supporting Nige and his inevitably self destructing militia is far from laughable.
I don't actually think that is what is happening. But its eminently feasible.

[jean]

Yes, it is my choice of words - and I choose them carefully, because the idea the Farage is nothing but a bogeyman invented by shadowy major pro EU interests seems to me laughably unfeasible.

[teamsaint]

Yes, it is my choice of words - and I choose them carefully, because the idea the Farage is nothing but a bogeyman invented by shadowy major pro EU interests seems to me laughably unfeasible.

many things are feasible. I don't know everything that goes on in centres of power.
Perhaps you do.

The EU is a very powerful organisation, and powerful organisations try all sorts of things to defend their positions. to be unaware of things that they might try to do is dangerous ,in my opinion.

If you believe(always dangerous things, beliefs) that the EU is utterly benign, then of course you can't possibly believe in the scenario I suggested

[jean]

It isn't necessary to believe the EU is utterly benign to find your scenario incredible.

The flaw in it is the existence of Farage - and the necessity, as you say yourself, for those using him in the way you suggest to be sure he'll quietly disappear when they don't need him any more.

[teamsaint]

It isn't necessary to believe the EU is utterly benign to find your scenario incredible.

The flaw in it is the existence of Farage - and the necessity, as you say yourself, for those using him in the way you suggest to be sure he'll quietly disappear when they don't need him any more.

UKIP will self destruct. It has no policies, no decent leaders (other than a moderately charismatic figurehead), no real base.It can be made to go away by removing the economic fear that drives its supporters to the polls in protest.They might see the greater danger as a move to stronger anti EU sentiment in the liberal middle classes. I think I would, if I was looking to promote EU expansion , or maintain its interests.
I feel certain that the people at the top have far more machiavellian minds than mine.
i dont actually believe the scenario I suggest, but I wouldnt rule out the possibility of it, or something like it.

[jean]

I think I'll wait and see what Beefy thinks.

[Beef Oven!]

I think I'll wait and see what Beefy thinks.

That's the kindest thing anyone has ever said about me.

[Beef Oven!]

UKIP will self destruct. It has no policies, no decent leaders (other than a moderately charismatic figurehead), no real base.It can be made to go away by removing the economic fear that drives its supporters to the polls in protest.They might see the greater danger as a move to stronger anti EU sentiment in the liberal middle classes. I think I would, if I was looking to promote EU expansion , or maintain its interests.
I feel certain that the people at the top have far more machiavellian minds than mine.
i dont actually believe the scenario I suggest, but I wouldnt rule out the possibility of it, or something like it.

If by they, you mean 'anybody who might seek to promote or maintain EU interests', then I think you may have a point.

Btw, Nigel is extremely charismatic. You may not go for it, but that's his main strength. Stalin was charismatic, and I'd hope you wouldn't go for him, either.

I'm not sure that 'economic fear' sits behind the UKIP's appeal. Take Greece, despite all that they have been through, the anti EU feeling is much smaller than it is in the UK.

[teamsaint]

If by they, you mean 'anybody who might seek to promote or maintain EU interests', then I think you may have a point.

Btw, Nigel is extremely charismatic. You may not go for it, but that's his main strength. Stalin was charismatic, and I'd hope you wouldn't go for him, either.

I'm not sure that 'economic fear' sits behind the UKIP's appeal. Take Greece, despite all that they have been through, the anti EU feeling is much smaller than it is in the UK.

That is who I meant by "They".

I'll take your word on the Greece thing.but economic fear and division IS a powerful driver,as you will be aware.
i did accept that Nige has some charisma.
Stalin wouldnt have bothered wasting the deposit money in my constituency.

[Richard Barrett]

I'm not sure that 'economic fear' sits behind the UKIP's appeal.

Not even Farage claims that, as in the quote I posted somewhere above. Suspicion of foreigners sits behind it, pandering to which is poisonous and shameful. And I don't really see how that individual could be described as "charismatic".

[teamsaint]

Not even Farage claims that, as in the quote I posted somewhere above. Suspicion of foreigners sits behind it, pandering to which is poisonous and shameful. And I don't really see how that individual could be described as "charismatic".

Charismatic? Plenty of people like him and vote for him. He may not appeal to me and you, but the votes tell another story I think.

Surely economic fear is a strong underlying factor in the fear of immigration? "Taking our jobs"?

Economic fears frequently underly populist movements, and this fear is channelled into racist/xenophobic policy.

My view would be that when the economics sort themselves out, the politics tend to follow.