Originally posted by Richard Barrett
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Don't worry; I think that most of the rest of us here do! -
Why ask such a question? Richard has written and implied nothing of the kind! Please read what he has written with greater care.Originally posted by Beef Oven! View Post
Again, who's saying this stuff?Originally posted by Beef Oven! View Post
One point about "immigration". UKIP are not alone in pointing out that UK has only a certain amount of space for "immigrants" - i.e. those coming into that country from outside it - and, insofar as that goes, that's fair enough. If, however, the nub of UKIP's point is that there's a practical limit to the total population that UK can sustain, oughtn't it to give due consideration to what would happen if even as many as 10% of those living outside UK but already entitled to enter it and settle in it? If it did so, it would surely find itself obliged to rethink most of its avowed "policies" on immigration (which, as it won't form the next UK government, according to Mr Farage himself, will in any case be of little interest or concern to anyone other than UKIP members and supporters). In truth, however, that is not the nub of UKIP's point and the risk of overpopulation of UK is quite clearly not the principal thrust behind its views on immigration, which are instead predicated on the matter of people of which races and/or which nationalities ought to be allowed to come to UK and which not - and that is obviously a quite different issue.Last edited by ahinton; 08-06-14, 17:31.Comment
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A calm, resonable person writes:
I can hardly speak through the reams of words you're stuffing into my mouth.Originally posted by Beef Oven! View Post
I am taking a somewhat wider view of things than what generally emerges out of the little-England mentality suffered from (or disingenuously affected) by UKIP and their fellow-travellers. The rise, if that's what it is, of UKIP is a symptom of the same kind of hijacking by far-right populism of people's dissatisfaction with established politics that can be seen in France, in the form of Marine Le Pen's fascism-with-a-dab-of-perfume, in Hungary and Greece in much more virulent forms, and in plenty of other parts of Europe. We know that while Farage is adept enough to keep most of his bigotry under wraps most of the time, but we also know that some members of his party would fit right into an openly far-right party like Hungary's Jobbik, and given the chance in the UK no doubt would do. UKIP in its present form looks a lot to me like the thin end of a Europe-wide wedge, aided and abetted by the news media, some elements of which (the Mail in particular) have some pretty shameful form in this area.
So I'm not in any way claiming that "Farage has a final solution, for something or other, possibly involving genocide, that is so secret no-one knows about it yet?" (But then neither did Mussolini when he came to power; he was badgered into it by someone more extreme than himself, and this is one reason why I think all far-right demagoguery needs to be implacably opposed.) I hope that's clear now. What about my other points?Comment
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Very clear indeed, thanks.Originally posted by Richard Barrett View Post
It has for some time been a matter of no small perplexity to me that so few people seem able, or prepared, to countenance the risk that a fundmanetal aspect of kipperdom is a kind of respectably (though thinly) concealed example of that very kind of potentially dangerous rise of right-wing manifestations that in our time, as in the 1930s, emanate from cynical advantage-taking of electorates' general discontent with establishment politics.
UKIP continues complacently to content itself with parading almost entirely on a springboard of swingeing immigration control and sub-jingoistic national isolationism and has done little to present itself as a party with serious and well-thought-out ideas about how to run a government and what to do when in office - not least, one may suppose, because its noisily barrack-room-esque leader neither anticipates forming a government in the foreseeable future nor perceives the need to dilute the arrogance that persuades him to imply that those two soap-boxes are sufficient of themselves to convince electors that they can achieve anything useful. Between now and then, someone sufficiently well versed in the art of PR ought to be seeking to persuade said electorate to ask of itself whether it would prefer democracy in some form or UKIP in its present one.
Yes, such "success" as UKIP has recently persuaded itself to enjoy cannot be discounted, but it's important that the party be seen in its true colours well before the next UK General Election, even though it still looks set to be able to accomplish little more than provide loud-mouthed nuisance value in the conduct and results of that election and destabilise its possible outcome.
I like your expression "Marine Le Pen's fascism-with-a-dab-of-perfume" almost as much as I deprecate what she and her archly xenophobic party stand for but, although the extent to which Front National now appears to be garnering support in France is not only considerably greater but also a good deal more worrying than the crest of a wave on which UKIP believes it's now riding in UK, the danger signals of each are nevertheless there to be seen by everyone with a pair of unblinkered eyes and a little knowledge of mid-20th century European history...Last edited by ahinton; 12-06-14, 11:23.Comment
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When talking about the latest developments in British electoral politics, UKIP etc, I find the parallels with Hitler, Mussolini, 'far-right demoagouary' all a bit far-fetched and frankly, rather silly.Originally posted by Richard Barrett View PostComment
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...and hard to spell as well, it would seem - but never mind that. I suspect that your view may in part arise from the fact that UKIP have yet to seize power in Britain and then do any of the kinds of thing that Hitler and Mussolini did when they had seized power in their countries; apart from that, however, haven't the parallels between the most loudly advertised of UKIP's "policies" and some of the coincidentally emerging far-right bluster in other Western European states (France, Austria, Greece, Hungary, for example) occurred to you?Originally posted by Beef Oven! View PostComment
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Yes, you've said that several times now, clearly we aren't going to agree on it although I think that not looking outside the borders of the UK provides an incomplete picture of the trends I'm talking about, but I've also asked you several times what about my and other contributors' other points, which you're studiously ignoring, sorry to be tiresome but in particular:Originally posted by Beef Oven! View Post
(a) if the UK were to leave the European Union it would still be almost as strongly affected by EU legislation but would no longer have even a small influence over it.
(b) immigration doesn't add to unemployment and 75% of "our" laws aren't "made in Brussels" - so what exactly is it about basing an entire political programme on lies told by a rich man in a suit that makes UKIP "different" from other parties?Last edited by Guest; 11-06-14, 09:08.Comment
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Your point (a) is spot on as is the first part of your point (b) and, although I do not pretend to have the answer to the question in the rest of your point (b) (not that you were addressing it to me to answer in any case), it is clear that "not looking outside the borders of the UK" not only "provides an incomplete picture of the trends (that you're) talking about", as you write, but seems also to be a fundamental tenet of those noisy little Englander isolationist "principles" (if indeed they could even be dignified with such a description) upon which kipperdom determines to function.Originally posted by Richard Barrett View Post
It remains a mystery to me how, even if there were a majority UKIP government in UK, this kind of attitude could hope to attract and retain any real credibility other than amongst a handful of narrow-minded xenophobics in Britain when the country is already multi-racial, multi-cultural and otherwise diverse; after all, Mr Farage's loud-mouthed comments about the perceived need to restrict immigration into Britain have yet to go as far as to include advocating repatriation of immigrants already living (and in many cases working) in Britain (and I'm sure that he realises that he and his party would very soon be made to fall apart if they did).Comment
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In today's news:
"Nigel Farage is facing fresh questions over his European expenses after he admitted that an office for which he claimed more than £205,000 from the taxpayer was provided to him free of charge by a Ukip supporter."
Not like the rest at all!Comment
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Apparently he could go to jail for this. What a shame, such a promising political career nipped cruelly in the bud.Originally posted by MrGongGong View PostComment
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Thank goodness then that Ed Miliband is in no way like the rest at all:
Good old Ed eh? Leader of the Proletariat and that...Comment
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Well he IS the rest. So much for standing up to Murdoch... which idiot among his spin doctors thought it was a good idea for him to pose with that rag in his hands?Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View PostComment
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The thought of Farage doing time has cheered me up no end
here's hoping he gets what he deservesComment
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