Not like the rest at all ?

[Beef Oven!]

You are crowing about the rise in support for a party which basically wishes to take all the harmful things that governments since Thatcher have done and crank them up further. I don't understand why an intelligent person would do that; for one thing you and the majority of inhabitants of the UK don't stand to benefit in any way from what they would do if elected to government. Apart from which: is there anything at all in what passes for their programme that makes them look like an answer to the moral and political bankruptcy of the major parties, rather than like yet another morbid symptom of it? And: what does it mean to be proud of the number of votes cast for an individual (Helmer) whose knuckle-dragging views on rape, homosexuality and climate change belong in Speakers' Corner, not serious national debate?

I'm not crowing, just keeping within the overall flavour of the thread.

Thatcher is much misunderstood.

[Richard Barrett]

Thatcher is much misunderstood.

Pray tell. I was there and I think I understood what was going on quite well.

[teamsaint]

Interesting point that came up in the Guardian piece is that as UKIP has become more popular, it has also become more unpopular. The reason why the Tories, against the normal odds, held on to the seat quite comfortably and Labour were so far away from retaking it (and, in part, anyway, why the Lib Dems were annihilated): Tories were seen to be the most likely winners (because they had held the seat before) and The Rest combined to vote for them tactically to keep UKIP out: Anyone But Them. Mr Farage might find that poses an obstacle to further advancement.

What amazes me is that so many millions of our fellow citizens are unemployed because of all the hordes of foreigners that have swarmed in and taken all the jobs; and that so many millions have had their lives irrevocably scarred by the mounds of EU legislation imposed on them ............ Or is it just that they read the Daily Express and Daily Mail?

I 'm not quite sure what you are saying here, FF.
Are you saying that the laws of supply and demand don't apply in the labour market ? Or that the papers you mention are solely responsible for public misunderstanding of these issues?

As a personal opinion, I would suggest that the current net immigration , predominantly from EU countries,would be a matter of rather less controversy if it was accompanied by appropriate increase in housing supply, and worthwhile increases in minimum wage.
The UK economy GDP seems to be benefitting from increasing population, to the point where our GDP is predicted by some to overtake Germany's by 2030. Infrastructure needs to follow this trend.

[french frank]

[/B]


I 'm not quite sure what you are saying here, FF.
Are you saying that the laws of supply and demand don't apply in the labour market ? Or that the papers you mention are solely responsible for public misunderstanding of these issues?

No, team. I am referring to the 'millions' who voted for UKIP and who, while clearly not all unemployed themselves, believe that immigrants cause widespread unemployment; and who, while not adversely affected by EU legislation to any discernible extent themselves, nevertheless rail about how the EU now makes 75% of our laws. I'm suggesting that, in the case of the UKIP voters, this is largely a matter of xenophobia and prejudice stoked up by such as the Daily Express and the Daily Mail.

[teamsaint]

No, team. I am referring to the 'millions' who voted for UKIP and who, while clearly not all unemployed themselves, believe that immigrants cause widespread unemployment; and who, while not adversely affected by EU legislation to any discernible extent themselves, nevertheless rail about how the EU now makes 75% of our laws. I'm suggesting that, in the case of the UKIP voters, this is largely a matter of xenophobia and prejudice stoked up by such as the Daily Express and the Daily Mail.

Ok, thanks for clarifying.
I would suggest that a general reduction in wage levels, which might in part be attributed to an increasing labour supply against static demand, might have helped to fuel the sentiments amongst employed working people that you mention. But in general I take your point.

[Beef Oven!]

No, team. I am referring to the 'millions' who voted for UKIP and who, while clearly not all unemployed themselves, believe that immigrants cause widespread unemployment; and who, while not adversely affected by EU legislation to any discernible extent themselves, nevertheless rail about how the EU now makes 75% of our laws. I'm suggesting that, in the case of the UKIP voters, this is largely a matter of xenophobia and prejudice stoked up by such as the Daily Express and the Daily Mail.

Zzzzzzzzzzzz - get over it!!!

[Richard Barrett]

I'm suggesting that, in the case of the UKIP voters, this is largely a matter of xenophobia and prejudice stoked up by such as the Daily Express and the Daily Mail.

How could it be otherwise? since it clearly isn't true that immigration causes unemployment in the UK or that 75% of UK laws are made in Brussels. And: whatever that percentage actually is, which depends on how you measure it, the figure asserted without factual support by Farage and his chums is supposedly a measure of the proportion of laws (regulatory in the vast majority of cases) passed in the European parliament which have an effect on the daily life of people in Europe. The thing is that if the UK left the EU that proportion (whatever it is) wouldn't change much, except that MEPs elected by British people would no longer have any influence over those laws. So is this deemed to be too difficult for readers of the aforementioned newspapers to understand, or are they lying for ideological reasons?

As for getting over it, no, like FF I'm not going to get over the fact that this motley crew of opportunists, racists, homophobes, political illiterates and borderline fascists have acquired the influence they have over the political scene in the UK. As a long-time expatriate I'm deeply ashamed of it and angry that the established parties have created the conditions for it to happen.

[Beef Oven!]

Pray tell. I was there and I think I understood what was going on quite well.

There you are, that's my point!

[Richard Barrett]

There you are, that's my point!

If you're claiming that I'm "misunderstanding" Thatcher maybe you could say a word or two about why you think so.

[Beef Oven!]

".......the fact that this motley crew of opportunists, racists, homophobes, political illiterates and borderline fascists have acquired the influence they have over the political scene in the UK......."

Well, there's the challenge. Take them on, head-on. Don't just sit there being all indignant with the royal-arsehole, telling our German cousins how ashamed you are. It's called democracy.

[Richard Barrett]

It's called democracy.

More precisely, an abuse of democracy, not completely unrelated to that visited on "our German cousins" just over eighty years ago.

[Anna]

What amazes me is that so many millions of our fellow citizens are unemployed because of all the hordes of foreigners that have swarmed in and taken all the jobs

Sorry to bring this down to a parochial level but, here's a funny thing .... It's been revealed that the newly elected UKIP MEP for Wales, Nathan Gill, in one of his home care business ventures in Hull employed 'dozens' of migrant workers. Mr Gill told the Western Mail: "We had a care home of our own, but mostly our workers were employed on home care contracts we had with Hull City Council and other organisations.

"The workers were paid more than the minimum wage, but not massively more.. The amount we could afford to pay was determined by the amount of money we received from the council. Working in care is quite tough and we had a big turnover of staff."

He said the workers came from new EU countries such as Poland and others were from the Philippines.

Mr Gill also confirmed his company provided "bunkhouse" accommodation for workers.

"The bunkhouses were temporary accommodation we offered to people coming from overseas until they could get something more permanent," said Mr Gill. "We charged £50 a week inclusive of electricity to people who would be earning between £200 and £300 a week."

Labour MP Peter Hain accused him of "bare-faced hypocrisy" and called on him to apologise.
But Mr Gill insisted: "UKIP has never said it wants to stop all immigration - it wants to limit the numbers" He said people from overseas were employed "because we could not find workers to do the jobs".

(Mr. Gill said the family firm, Burgill Ltd, collapsed when a bank withdrew its borrowing facility after the banking crisis.)

[french frank]

"because we could not find workers to do the jobs".

Having spent some time in hospital 18 months ago I was impressed at the large number of overseas workers on the wards - at all levels. The NHS may not pay royally, but I doubt very much that it's employing such staff in order to get cheap labour.

[Beef Oven!]

More precisely, an abuse of democracy, not completely unrelated to that visited on "our German cousins" just over eighty years ago.

An abuse of democracy that is related in some way to Adolf Hitler, the Nazis, Third Reich, Second World War and the Holocaust?

Are we to take you seriously, on this matter?

[Beef Oven!]

Having spent some time in hospital 18 months ago I was impressed at the large number of overseas workers on the wards - at all levels. The NHS may not pay royally, but I doubt very much that it's employing such staff in order to get cheap labour.

I don't understand why having 'large numbers of overseas workers on a ward - at all levels', is something to be impressed by, per se. I hope it's not because they were competent and diligent, and that exceeded your expectation, or that you thought that the NHS only gave higher-level jobs to home-born professionals.