Minimum price alcohol

[Alain Maréchal]

I'd add that drinking habitually is portrayed as a normal part of our culture - The Bull in The Archers, The Rovers in Coronation Street, The Queen Vic in East Enders etc etc.

Is there a nation in europe where drinking habitually is NOT portrayed as a normal part of a culture?

[cloughie]

Nothing new - don't try to solve problems just put the cost up. Too manycars on the road - increase the cost of motoring, too many people using trains - put the fares up - too much rubbish - charge for recycling - just goes on...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqK97av7I3s

[umslopogaas]

Part of the problem of drinking too much is, to my eyes, a glaring mis-match between the amount the medical profession SAYS it is safe to drink and the amount I REQUIRE to satisfy my thirst. Whatever we are told is the limit (four units a day for males, I think?) is woefully inadequate for seasoned drinkers (like me). The late Alan Coren, wonderfully funny guy, summed it up: "A unit, do you know how big a unit is? You couldnt bathe your eye in it."

So, I'm drinking way over the limit the doctors tell me is safe, and in their view I'm heading for an early grave. Perhaps they are right, but if they are then so far its a painless process and doesnt show, the last time I saw my doctor he didnt mention alcohol at all. Anyway, we've all got to go somehow. I've always liked W.C. Fields' retort:

Temperance Campaigner: "Mr Fields, you drink far too much. If you arent careful you'll drown in whisky."

W.C. Fields: "Drown in whisky? Oh death, where is thy sting?"

[rauschwerk]

...the question of whether increased prices will reduce consumption is surely a question for economists, rather than medical experts

I have little faith in the pronouncements of economists: it's time for action. This is a bold (and therefore controversial) experiment which must be tried. The problem will be that it will take some time for the results to show and I fear that it might be scrapped before there has been any proper measurement and rational discussion of those results. My wife, who once worked as an alcohol counsellor, tells me that it might prevent people from establishing an addiction by markedly increasing the price of cheap cider, the unit price of which is currently absurdly low.

Rationing individual purchases would be far too easy to get round, surely, as drinkers would simply go from shop to shop (and are there not far too many shops selling alcohol nowadays?). As for on-the-spot fines, how would they be collected?

[MrGongGong]

I buy 12 bottle cases from Laithwaites too. But I shudder when I see people in Bridlington Tesco filling their basket with several large packs of beer, lager, cider, etc. It's too accessible for irresponsible drinkers.

hummmm

I also drink wine and beer etc
BUT what you are suggesting is that somehow it's ok to get your wine merchant to send you a few cases as you are "responsible" but people who drink lager are somehow "irresponsible" ........

There is a lot of nonsense talked about this ......... there is a huge problem with alcohol related illness in France for example

[Flosshilde]

I have little faith in the pronouncements of economists: it's time for action. This is a bold (and therefore controversial) experiment which must be tried. The problem will be that it will take some time for the results to show and I fear that it might be scrapped before there has been any proper measurement and rational discussion of those results. My wife, who once worked as an alcohol counsellor, tells me that it might prevent people from establishing an addiction by markedly increasing the price of cheap cider, the unit price of which is currently absurdly low.

Rationing individual purchases would be far too easy to get round, surely, as drinkers would simply go from shop to shop (and are there not far too many shops selling alcohol nowadays?). As for on-the-spot fines, how would they be collected?

Absolutely agree. There has been rather a lot of nonsense posted on the subject here; this must be one of the most idiotic -

" Part of the problem of drinking too much is, to my eyes, a glaring mis-match between the amount the medical profession SAYS it is safe to drink and the amount I REQUIRE to satisfy my thirst. Whatever we are told is the limit (four units a day for males, I think?) is woefully inadequate for seasoned drinkers (like me). (umslopogaas)"

The target of the measure is on the whole, not the young people on the street & in the pub - they are obvious & visible & can be dealt with by the police - but the unknown middle-aged alcoholics (which, from his statement above, could include umslopogaas) who mostly drink at home & in secret & who make up the statistics for liver damage & other alcohol-related disease, & death. It won't penalise the poor moderate drinker, it won't affect pubs (on the whole); it will affect mainly the supermarkets which sell alcohol at a lower price than water - so naturally they are the ones protesting about it.

Of course the ideal is to deal with the underlying reasons for dependence on alcohol. That might come, but it will need a government prepared to put time & money into it.

[umslopogaas]

Flosshilde, I'm sixty three and have been drinking since I was a teenager, so I'm definitely middle aged and might be an alcoholic, but I cant be sure because I've never tried to stop. If I could, I wouldnt be an alcoholic, merely a heavy drinker. And while doctors tell me I'm drinking too much and am PROBABLY damaging my health, I cant detect any sign of damage. And hey, I enjoy it. I may be behaving recklessly, but I dont think what I posted was nonsense and I rather object to the accusation that it was idiotic. I merely point out what is an observable fact: to satisfy my thirst I need what the medics tell me is a dangerous amount of alcohol, but if it is dangerous it doesnt seem to be doing any damage (other than to my wallet, but I can afford it). Perhaps I just have a sturdy liver.

[MrGongGong]

Flosshilde, I'm sixty three and have been drinking since I was a teenager, so I'm definitely middle aged and might be an alcoholic, but I cant be sure because I've never tried to stop. If I could, I wouldnt be an alcoholic, merely a heavy drinker. And while doctors tell me I'm drinking too much and am PROBABLY damaging my health, I cant detect any sign of damage. And hey, I enjoy it. I may be behaving recklessly, but I dont think what I posted was nonsense and I rather object to the accusation that it was idiotic. I merely point out what is an observable fact: to satisfy my thirst I need what the medics tell me is a dangerous amount of alcohol, but if it is dangerous it doesnt seem to be doing any damage (other than to my wallet, but I can afford it). Perhaps I just have a sturdy liver.

Oh dear

I'm 48 and have always felt fine , never really been ill until the day when I was rushed to hospital to find that I had a tumour the size of a grapefruit on my kidney, I had probably had it for many years without having any idea at all.
I couldn't detect anything at all until internal bleeding started .............. there really isn't such a thing as a "sturdy liver" and even if your liver was damaged you couldn't "feel". Now you are perfectly free to drink as much as you like but the kind of anecdotal "my dad smoked 80 a day and lived to be 98" stuff means nothing apart from an inability to understand the basics of statistics.
I drink alcohol but wouldn't delude myself to think that because I've always done it and can't "feel" anything it's not having an effect !

[teamsaint]

There are , in fact some really serious questions to be asked about alcohol.

Why, for instance, is it the authorised, legal high ? What is so beneficial about it, and what is it in other consciousness altering drugs that those in authority think is so bad?

The casualty waiting rooms aren't full of people who have got into fights after smoking cannabis, are they?

Leave aside all the arguments about control, tax, quality, availability, all of which can be dealt with, and you still have the question of why we allow this drug, and not others.

in my humble opinion,alcohol is a rather destructive drug. In moderation it relaxes people at best, in much more than moderation it can lead to all the problems we know about.
On the other hand, is it not the case that cannabis, for instance, has led musicians down some rather creative paths?

I honestly can't remember a musician ever claiming that they did some great work after a few pints.

Just asking the question, is all.

[MrGongGong]

On the other hand, is it not the case that cannabis, for instance, has led musicians down some rather creative paths?
I honestly can't remember a musician ever claiming that they did some great work after a few pints.

NO

It makes you play badly, loose any sense of the other people you are playing with AND gives you an over inflated sense of the quality of what you are doing .....
some people claim all sorts of nonsense ....... having had the experience of recording and doing gigs with people who have been indulging it's always crap.

[teamsaint]

NO

It makes you play badly, loose any sense of the other people you are playing with AND gives you an over inflated sense of the quality of what you are doing .....
some people claim all sorts of nonsense ....... having had the experience of recording and doing gigs with people who have been indulging it's always crap.

Ok, fair enough. what about the creative process? Lou Reed/Velvets? (lord help us?)

[Mr Pee]

Flosshilde, I'm sixty three and have been drinking since I was a teenager, so I'm definitely middle aged and might be an alcoholic, but I cant be sure because I've never tried to stop. If I could, I wouldnt be an alcoholic, merely a heavy drinker. And while doctors tell me I'm drinking too much and am PROBABLY damaging my health, I cant detect any sign of damage. And hey, I enjoy it. I may be behaving recklessly, but I dont think what I posted was nonsense and I rather object to the accusation that it was idiotic. I merely point out what is an observable fact: to satisfy my thirst I need what the medics tell me is a dangerous amount of alcohol, but if it is dangerous it doesnt seem to be doing any damage (other than to my wallet, but I can afford it). Perhaps I just have a sturdy liver.

[aeolium]

Is there a nation in europe where drinking habitually is NOT portrayed as a normal part of a culture?

Precisely, Alain. And isn't that in part because it has been a normal part of many different cultures for a very long time? See for instance this brief history.

What I don't much care for is the puritanism of those who persistently seek to intervene in the behaviour of people even if that behaviour does not harm anyone else. We seem to be moving towards an increasing intolerance of excess or any lifestyle that departs from the prescribed optimum, with the result that we may end up with a society where people live very long lives with few pleasures. Watch any of those programmes where 'experts' take victims to task for their lifestyle shortcomings and it is almost as though a parson was berating his audience for the poor health of their souls - though nowadays it is physical rather than spiritual health that is the object of criticism.

[umslopogaas]

#23 Mr GG, sorry to hear about that, it sounds like a really unpleasant experience. And yes, I do appreciate that just because I cant feel any effect on my liver, it doesnt mean I'm not damaging it. I know a bit about livers and about statistics, I'm a biologist. I know that you can wreck most of it with alcohol but then stop just in time and it will regenerate. The problem is, deciding when is "just in time". But while I can afford it, enjoy it, and apparently do it without ill effect, I'm afraid knowing the dangers isnt going to stop me. As someone else pointed out, everyone's got to die of something.

And #27, very good health to you too, Mr Pee.

[MrGongGong]

I wasn't suggesting prohibition
but there is (and i'm sure as someone who probably does understand statistics you will get this ?) a tendency for folk to always think that it's someone else's problem.
Personally all being well I'd like to do as well as Elliot Carter
when I got ill a good friend suggested that I should double the quality and halve the quantity , which sounds like a good plan to me

I'm also keen on Michael Pollan's approach ............

"Eat food, not too much, mostly plants"