What Was Your Most Recent Bottle of Wine?

[vinteuil]

But I think also it depends on how the fish is cooked. Brandade of cod? Sole ménagère? Escoffier has fish recipes where he uses red and white wine. I see for 'Sole au vin rouge' he says: "Proceed as for the sole sur le plat but substitute red wine for white wine and add 1 tablespoon of meat jelly."

... indeed so. In one of my late mother's cook books I find, for example, recipes for -

sole campanoff : poached and coated with half white wine sauce and half red wine sauce, a thread of victoria sauce to finish

sole bourguignonne : poached in red wine, garnished with small onions and mushroom heads, coat with red wine sauce made from the cooking stock

sole bordelaise : poached in red wine with chopped shallots, coated with reduced stock mixed with bordelaise sauce

sole archiduc : poached with madeira, whisky, port wine, and fish stock, reduce the cooking liquor, add butter and cream and brunoise of vegetables and truffles, coat with sauce

sole rouennaise : poached with red wine and shallots, garnished with oysters and poached mussels, mushrooms, shrimps, coated with the reduced stock, mixed with meat glaze and butter, surround with trussed crayfish, fried smelts and croutons



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[french frank]

... of course. The absurd scene in 'From Russia With Love' where Bond thinks he identifies someone as 'not a gent' bicoz he orders a red wine with his fish - the whole point of an English gent is that in matters like this he does what he likes and couldn't give a toss for the 'rules'. A clear sign, if further were needed, that Bond with all his pretensions, is decidedly non-U, not a gent but a bounder who tries too hard.

Of course, a 'gent', having been served with Bordeaux with his poached sole, might venture, "My compliments … nice drop of Saint-Émilion." He would not add, "Would go a treat with bit of roast lamb."

But I think also it depends on how the fish is cooked. Brandade of cod? Sole ménagère? Escoffier has fish recipes where he uses red and white wine. I see for 'Sole au vin rouge' he says: "Proceed as for the sole sur le plat but substitute red wine for white wine and add 1 tablespoon of meat jelly."

[vinteuil]

With all these things, to my mind, the best approach is your own taste. Sometimes the "rules" suit my taste, sometimes they don't. It's good to know what those rules, traditions customs etc are but if ever there was a case of "Rules are made to be broken" this is it: food and drink.
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... of course. The absurd scene in 'From Russia With Love' where Bond thinks he identifies someone as 'not a gent' bicoz he orders a red wine with his fish - the whole point of an English gent is that in matters like this he does what he likes and couldn't give a toss for the 'rules'. A clear sign, if further were needed, that Bond with all his pretensions, is decidedly non-U, not a gent but a bounder who tries too hard





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[french frank]

The basic French approach however is red wine with cheese - even if some of them may kill the wine.

I prefer this approach. With all these things, to my mind, the best approach is your own taste. Sometimes the "rules" suit my taste, sometimes they don't. It's good to know what those rules, traditions customs etc are but if ever there was a case of "Rules are made to be broken" this is it: food and drink.

I liked the idea (in the linked article) that port and stilton go together, not because port is a red wine, but because it is a sweet, fortified wine. Even a non-fortified Sauternes can be quite strong. That would make pairing a Sauternes with Roquefort a good match.

[Barbirollians]

Roquefort and sauternes is a classic. Goats cheeses are also renowned to go with Loire Sauvignon Blanc. The basic French approach however is red wine with cheese - even if some of them may kill the wine. Epoisses for example and red burgundy are a classic match - the cheese tends to dominate.

[french frank]

... well, sauternes is a classic with roquefort

https://www.decanter.com/learn/food/cordon-bleu/matching-wine-blue-cheese-le-cordon-bleu-346376/

Yes, I think that might have been it. But maybe better with a stronger-tasting cheese like roquefort? That said, I regularly pair quite strong-tasting Spanish blue cheeses with manzanilla - but I don't think I could face a sweet sherry with them. The only way to find out …

[vinteuil]

Second thoughts: I have been offered a sweet dessert wine with some cheese in a French bistro (here in Bristol, but run by a French couple). Not my taste though. Can't remember what the cheese was.

... well, sauternes is a classic with roquefort

https://www.decanter.com/learn/food/cordon-bleu/matching-wine-blue-cheese-le-cordon-bleu-346376/

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[french frank]

...except of course there are cheeses which are much better with white wine! .

As there are main courses which go much better with white (in a domestic situation where a fish entrée doesn't routinely precede the main meat course). Careful planning needed if more than one wine is being served. With French cheeses, at any rate, any delicate-tasting cheese is worthy of a white. Not sure** it would (ideally) be a pudding wine though so the problem still arises.

** I am sure: it wouldn't be a pudding wine

Second thoughts: I have been offered a sweet dessert wine with some cheese in a French bistro (here in Bristol, but run by a French couple). Not my taste though. Can't remember what the cheese was.

[vinteuil]

Yes the continuing with the same or similar red wine is the reason why the French go main, cheese, dessert in that order.
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...except of course there are cheeses which are much better with white wine! We like having both white and red available if there is a range of cheeses on offer


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[Barbirollians]

Yes the continuing with the same or similar red wine is the reason why the French go main, cheese, dessert in that order.

I have to admit I prefer it but for a different reason - if the cheese comes last I tend to eat more of it and drink more port etc ..

If a Co-op customer I would recommend their well above average Orvieto Campogrande £9 at present but often reduced .

[french frank]

... well, there are other ways to finish a meal. At traditional English dinners you might have after the main courses - pudding, followed by cheese, followed by a savoury (devils on horseback, scotch woodcock &c), followed by port & nuts, followed by coffee & digestifs. I have been at university meals and elsewhere which followed that pattern.

At the British Embassy in Paris the diplomatic niceties were solved by having the cheese and puddings brought to the table at the same time, leaving the guests to decide whether they wanted to follow British or French customs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoury_(dish)

Sadly, yes, though I'm not sure how savoury dishes 'clear the palate'. I do prefer the salé dishes first, followed by the sucré. The alternation between savoury and sweet does seem to pose the problem of what you drink with each course. In my view. But of course - Liberty Hall: people are free to decide what pleases them. I'm surprised how often domestic routine is reduced to main course and pudding, with no cheese except for very formal dinners or when you've invited guests.

[vinteuil]

So I've probably given my explanation for the French custom (correct!) to have the cheese course after the main course and not after the pudding as many in Angleterre would have it. If push comes to shove the same good red wine can be served for a main course and the cheese, but for the pudding a sweet dessert wine is required. Impossible to alternate red, dessert, red again. I'm not sure that a pudding wine is much of a thing in the UK. .

... well, there are other ways to finish a meal. At traditional English dinners you might have after the main courses - pudding, followed by cheese, followed by a savoury (devils on horseback, scotch woodcock &c), followed by port & nuts, followed by coffee & digestifs. I have been at university meals and elsewhere which followed that pattern.

At the British Embassy in Paris the diplomatic niceties were solved by having the cheese and puddings brought to the table at the same time, leaving the guests to decide whether they wanted to follow British or French customs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoury_(dish)

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[french frank]

Went to lunch a few days ago at an old University friend’s, and hugely enjoyed this excellent viognier from t’Coop:

I've seen that one in our Coopy. Thanks for the tip.

[Nick Armstrong]

Thanks to the Wine Society I have found a useful succedaneum : from the Languedoc, their Domaine du Bosc, cabernet franc, 2012 at £6.50 [page 45 of April/July list].

Domaine du Bosc also produce a most attractive viognier, at £6.75 [page 101 from the list].

Yes the du Bosc wines are a bit of alright.

Went to lunch a few days ago at an old University friend’s, and hugely enjoyed this excellent viognier from t’Coop:



Really delicious

[french frank]

* EDIT - yes, I was banging on about this in 2018

In conversation avec moi!

So I've probably given my explanation for the French custom (correct!) to have the cheese course after the main course and not after the pudding as many in Angleterre would have it. If push comes to shove the same good red wine can be served for a main course and the cheese, but for the pudding a sweet dessert wine is required. Impossible to alternate red, dessert, red again. I'm not sure that a pudding wine is much of a thing in the UK. Or even wine-drinking judging by my observations in restaurants (which cannot here be described ).