Veganuary

[ardcarp]

Can't wait until Choctober, personally. However, being serious for moment, I'm puzzled by the science behind a vegetarian diet being considered good for the envoronment. I'm sure people have done their carbon and methane sums, but surely biodiversity counts for a lot. The interdependence of species seems pretty important to me. In the West Country where I live there is a rich pattern of small fields, hedgerows, pasture meadow and hill-grazing. The sheer abundance of bird-life, insect life and the presence of small mammals is a byproduct of this type of agriculture. In some Eastern parts of the UK there are vast tracts of arable fields, huge because the hedgerows have long since been grubbed out in the interests of mechanised farming. The soil and crops are regularly blasted by alternative doses of chemical fertilisers and insecticides. Whilst I respect any individual's right to choose veganism or vegetarianism, if the fashion for this becomes widespread, then the vast acres of monoculture will become even more vast to feed the population. Any thoughts?

[Bryn]

Can't wait until Choctober, personally. However, being serious for moment, I'm puzzled by the science behind a vegetarian diet being considered good for the envoronment. I'm sure people have done their carbon and methane sums, but surely biodiversity counts for a lot. The interdependence of species seems pretty important to me. In the Wets Country where I live there is a rich pattern of small fields, hedgerows, pasture meadow and hill-grazing. The sheer abundance of bird-life, insect life and the presence of small mammals is a byproduct of this type of agriculture. In some Eastern parts of the UK there are vast tracts of arable fields, huge because the hedgerows have long since been grubbed out in the interests of mechanised farming. The soil and crops are regularly blasted by alternative doses of chemical fertilisers and insecticides. Whilst I respect any individual's right to choose veganism or vegetarianism, if the fashion for this becomes widespread, then the vast acres of monoculture will become even more vast to feed the population. Any thoughts?

Surely its those very Eastern parts which, with their low profile, are more the "Wets Country". With your argument, however.

[DracoM]

Love Choctober.!!

[ahinton]

Love Choctober.!!

One aspect of the advocacy of veganism that I find notable is that, as the land around where I live is especially fertile due to at least two centuries of output from farmed livestock, I question the estent to which the notion of growing food for plant based diet on such land accords to vegan principles...

[oddoneout]

One aspect of the advocacy of veganism that I find notable is that, as the land around where I live is especially fertile due to at least two centuries of output from farmed livestock, I question the estent to which the notion of growing food for plant based diet on such land accords to vegan principles...

It doesn't, and is something which has begun to be written about recently, especially in connection with vegetable crops. The whole thing starts to get a bit knotty as excluding animal contributions, even where said animals are not used for food etc, is not a 'natural' ecological state, and how far do you go with not exploiting animals if the fertility of your soil depends on the activity of worms etc? The recent 'ethical veganism' court case brought to light the unvegan fig issue - the fertilisation and subsequent fruit production of some kinds of figs involves the death of a wasp.
I do not have a problem with veganism per se but I do wish there was a bit more recognition and acceptance of the compromises/anomalies that it may cause. One that I came across recently when investigating vitamin supplements for a friend was that an increasingly favoured vegan Vit D supplement uses lichen from North American forests. Given the rate of growth of lichen that hardly seems sustainable, quite apart from the inevitable disruption to the local environment.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Well...
Arguments for and against can sometimes emirate from interested parties in both corners. Meat production, especially beef, is likely to be considered less and less desirable for the environment, as it’s extravagant in land use. Equivalent protein yields from plant crops require only a fraction of land when compared with livestock farming. Forests are destroyed to grow soya beans just to feed bison in America. And then there’s the methane from all the oxen and bison, the effect of which may exceed the greenhouse gases produced by fossil fuels for transport.

The land use argument doesn’t apply in all circumstances. Animals can feed themselves in mountainous regions where arable farming isn’t a option, as long as they don’t eat fodder from arable areas.

Chicken farming is considerably less damaging for the environment, so here there’s perhaps room for compromise.

The livestock industry is starting to fight back on social media. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

[Rjw]

I understood that a huge proportion of the crops grown on arable farms are use to provide animal food to support the meat industry!

[Rjw]

Can't wait until Choctober, personally. However, being serious for moment, I'm puzzled by the science behind a vegetarian diet being considered good for the envoronment. I'm sure people have done their carbon and methane sums, but surely biodiversity counts for a lot. The interdependence of species seems pretty important to me. In the Wets Country where I live there is a rich pattern of small fields, hedgerows, pasture meadow and hill-grazing. The sheer abundance of bird-life, insect life and the presence of small mammals is a byproduct of this type of agriculture. In some Eastern parts of the UK there are vast tracts of arable fields, huge because the hedgerows have long since been grubbed out in the interests of mechanised farming. The soil and crops are regularly blasted by alternative doses of chemical fertilisers and insecticides. Whilst I respect any individual's right to choose veganism or vegetarianism, if the fashion for this becomes widespread, then the vast acres of monoculture will become even more vast to feed the population. Any thoughts?

The sheer abundance of birds, insects and small mammals?

Keep up!

[Joseph K]

I understood that a huge proportion of the crops grown on arable farms are use to provide animal food to support the meat industry!

This was my thought, too...

[ardcarp]

The sheer abundance of birds, insects and small mammals?

Keep up!

Can you expand on that Rjw?

[Richard Tarleton]

The sheer abundance of birds, insects and small mammals?

Keep up!

Where? I don't follow, Rjw. In what way is ardcarp not keeping up?

[oddoneout]

I understood that a huge proportion of the crops grown on arable farms are use to provide animal food to support the meat industry!

Which is a double 'fail' in many respects. It provides an unsuitable diet for the animals it is fed to. and also could be better used as the basis for food materials for humans; soya is well known but wheat can be used for seitan. I would say that the latter could deal with the criticism that currently the UK isn't set-up to produce its own soya needs but UK grown wheat tends to have lower gluten levels so whether that would make the yield uneconomic for seitan I don't know.
It does seem perverse to give over land to growing feedstuffs that cause ill-health and poorer quality meat and milk in cattle and in so doing lead to serious waste pollution issues in addition to the increased methane output resulting from the diet.

[oddoneout]

Where? I don't follow, Rjw. In what way is ardcarp not keeping up?

Possibly in that although there may be more visible signs of life in such systems than the arable agriculture of the eastern counties, the numbers and variety are in fact very much lower than they used to, and should, be? I cannot find the info at the moment but some years ago a film maker, concerned at the lack of the 'white birds flying after' at ploughing on the family farm started to investigate and found the extent to which the natural world had been removed from it as a result of modern farm practices. For instance, there were animals grazing the fields but routine use of worming medication(due in part at least to the high stocking levels necessary to yield an adequate return) killed the invertebrates in those fields.

[ahinton]

I understood that a huge proportion of the crops grown on arable farms are use to provide animal food to support the meat industry!

Not only that, the soil around where I am is extremely fertile, mainly due to the land having been used for at least a couple of centuries for the rearing of livestock; one might wonder whether it would contravene the principles of fundemantalist veganism to grow crops for human or animal consumption in such soil...

[oddoneout]

Not only that, the soil around where I am is extremely fertile, mainly due to the land having been used for at least a couple of centuries for the rearing of livestock; one might wonder whether it would contravene the principles of fundemantalist veganism to grow crops for human or animal consumption in such soil...

The pragmatic approach would be to say, in effect, 'that was then this is now' and consider current cropping practice as the decider. I have been reorganising my compost arrangements and was musing about the extent to which I could be considered to be exploiting animals in producing material to nourish my garden...