Karajan's first Bruckner 8

[Guest]

There are a large number of Bruckner recordings clamouring for your attention and you may well not have come across this early 1957 recording of Bruckner's 8th Symphony which was possibly Karajan's first recording of a Bruckner symphony in stereo.

Stewart Crowe has written very interestingly here about the recording process.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B0009NDKXW/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

although he starts off with the enigmatic phrase: "This 1957 recorded symphony is an historic recording in so many ways, though happily not in sound quality". My version is on a World Record Club double album with the stereo "S" stamped in red in front of the record number T 772/3 bought £34 !!!, I must have been flush, from Harold Moore's Emporium. I have found the sound quality to be quite raw at times, a result of the very dry acoustic which is unusual for a church. It has the effect of removing any possible sentimentality from the performance but allows some very fine detail to be audible. If you want "sheer beauty of sound and opulence of texture" there is this conductor's last version with the VPO but are these qualities really what Bruckner is about?

http://www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/vinyl.php

is the link.

[Gordon]

There are a large number of Bruckner recordings clamouring for your attention and you may well not have come across this early 1957 recording of Bruckner's 8th Symphony which was possibly Karajan's first recording of a Bruckner symphony in stereo.

Stewart Crowe has written very interestingly here about the recording process.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B0009NDKXW/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

although he starts off with the enigmatic phrase: "This 1957 recorded symphony is an historic recording in so many ways, though happily not in sound quality". My version is on a World Record Club double album with the stereo "S" stamped in red in front of the record number T 772/3 bought £34 !!!, I must have been flush, from Harold Moore's Emporium. I have found the sound quality to be quite raw at times, a result of the very dry acoustic which is unusual for a church. It has the effect of removing any possible sentimentality from the performance but allows some very fine detail to be audible. If you want "sheer beauty of sound and opulence of texture" there is this conductor's last version with the VPO but are these qualities really what Bruckner is about?

http://www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/vinyl.php

is the link.

Thanks Clive, interesting review that. I've had this recording for many years and it does indeed suffer tehnically a little from its age. It was recorded in May 1957 at Jesus-Christus church in Berlin which was a famous recording venue with far from dry acoustics - it was Berlin's answer to Kingsway Hall. I suspect technical difficulties rather than the acoustic. The recording team could well have been local Electrola rather than from London but they should have known the Hall well enough. It was at this time that Electrola designed the stereo mixing desk that was also adopted by London before introducing their own design based on it later in about 1959.

He made a few other recordings with the BPO as well this one at about this time - Handel's Water Music eg - but his main output via EMI was with the Philharmonia. Despite becoming chief conductor at the BPO after Furtwangler in 1955 Karajan was still honing the BPO to his own

The comment in the review about 4 minute takes is at odds with I have been told by EMI recording engineers, now retired, that worked with Karajan. They reported that he grasped the freedom of tape [from about 1948 when EMI began using it - and that co-incides with Karajan's 12 year London career] and the long take opportunity that came with it. Having worked with the Philharmonia for so so long he was, in the latter years, in the habit of starting them off and then leaving to go into the control room!! It has to be said that in the those later years the material he recorded with the Philharmonia was not substantial, eg Bruckner, although there were some Sibelius symphonies [2 & 5] in 1960. He could have done a new stereo set of Beethoven symphonies for example having made only No8 in his Philharmonia cycle as well as a new Brahms set. One of the problems was that other conductors like Klemperer and Giulini were around because Legge knew that Karajan would leave London sooner or later so repertoire was shared.

Incidentally in September 1958 [just about when Stereo LPs were frst issued] Karajan took the Philharmonia to Vienna's Musikvereinsaal to record the Missa Solemnis [he was conductor of the Vienna Singverein] and the technical quality of that recording was not good - the stereo version was a long time before it was issued at all, by World Records. It's available on Testament. There was a Mozart symphony 38 made at the same time presumably from spare session time and this was issued in stereo although it isn't EMI's best.

And of course he did record a part of Bruckner 8 in stereo in 1944!! This was recorded on tape by DRRG on June 28th 1944 (movements 2 and 3) and the 4th in stereo September 28th 1944 in Hall 1 of the Radio House in Berlin.

[Ferretfancy]

I have the CD reissue of this performance, one of those rather clumsy double jewel boxes, it's coupled with orchestral excerpts from Lohengrin and Parsifal recorded in 1974. The engineers for both performances were Horst Lindner and Wolgang Gulich, and the Bruckner dates from 1957.
I don't remember the WRC LPs, but there's not much wrong to my ears in the CDs. I certainly would not complain of the sound being excessively dry, it's perhaps a little close, but nothing to worry about and there's plenty of warmth in the bass.

I compared it with Karajan's 1971 version of the 7th Symphony, again made in the Jesus Christus Kirche with the same team. I find this a low level CD transfer, rather lacking in impact, and with that ethereal woodwind sound that Karajan seemed to like, very distant in this case.

I remember that when the 8th was released some critics found it ponderous. I wouldn't say that, but these recordings are not my favourites.

[Gordon]

... Wolfgang Gulich...

a bit of a maverick for German EMI/Electrola but Karajan thought him wonderful. Unfortunately many of the early 70s EMI recordings made when he returned to them after a spat with DG are blighted by some strange balancing by Gulich. Some reissues in the Karajan in XX series [?when] were better presumably having been remixed. I think Karajan's Meistersingers made in Dresden in 1970 was recorded by local VEB engineers undeer Claus Struben.

Horst Lindner of Electrola is also named in this period on recordings by Kempe in Berlin. Not all were in the J-C Kirche in Dahlem [SW Berlin, there appears to be another J-C Kirche used for recording in the suburb of Neukoln in the SE of the city - 7th Day Adventists] but also Grunewaldkirche [another suburb not far away to the N of Dahlem] the Wintergarten and Lindenkirche not far away from J-C Dahlem.

[Petrushka]

Like FF I also have the CD issue of the 1957 Bruckner 8 (though mine is a later reissue coupled with overtures by Weber, Nicolai, Wagner and Mendelssohn}. Similarly, I can't find much to complain about regarding the sound either.

Karajan's much lauded 1975 DG recording still sounds unpleasant on the ear to me, rough, harsh and wholly lacking in depth, even in the latest reissue in the Karajan 1970s box.

Karajan's final recording with the VPO has its critics but I'm not among them. A sensational, and sensationally recorded account which remains my first choice. I also greatly like the DVD performance given in June 1979 with the VPO in St Florian just two weeks before I heard him perform the work with the BPO in London in a concert that will forever stay in my memory. That concert was recorded by Capital Radio (!) and I possess (don't ask) a less than ideal recording of it; the Adagio has a cut where the cassette tape obviously had to be changed and there is sundry annoying radio interference throughout. The basic sound, however, is superb and if any enterprising company (are you listening, Testament?) can get hold of the original tape it would make a fascinating release. I live in hope.

[Beef Oven!]

This morning, I played the 1957 VPO Bruckner 8 from an Andante 'Great Orchestras - VPO' set that also includes Mitropoulos' Mahler 9, plus Tod und Verklarung and Ein Heldenlieben from Bohm. The sound quality is pants. Maybe Clive is referring to this VPO account in his OP.

I have also had the EMI BPO 1957 performance in my collection for years, and to my ears it's a good recording.

edit: I've just followed the link to Amazon, it is the the BPO that he's referring to.... oh well!

[richardfinegold]

Like FF I also have the CD issue of the 1957 Bruckner 8 (though mine is a later reissue coupled with overtures by Weber, Nicolai, Wagner and Mendelssohn}. Similarly, I can't find much to complain about regarding the sound either.

Karajan's much lauded 1975 DG recording still sounds unpleasant on the ear to me, rough, harsh and wholly lacking in depth, even in the latest reissue in the Karajan 1970s box.

Karajan's final recording with the VPO has its critics but I'm not among them. A sensational, and sensationally recorded account which remains my first choice. I also greatly like the DVD performance given in June 1979 with the VPO in St Florian just two weeks before I heard him perform the work with the BPO in London in a concert that will forever stay in my memory. That concert was recorded by Capital Radio (!) and I possess (don't ask) a less than ideal recording of it; the Adagio has a cut where the cassette tape obviously had to be changed and there is sundry annoying radio interference throughout. The basic sound, however, is superb and if any enterprising company (are you listening, Testament?) can get hold of the original tape it would make a fascinating release. I live in hope.

I just played that BPO mid 70s recording 2 days ago (contained in a complete set of the Bruckner Symphonies). I agree about the bass deficiencies, which I think is a constant in most DG recordings, regardless of Orchestra or venue, from that whole decade (and beyond). I didn't think the treble was all that harsh, but my system tends to be pretty treble friendly, so your mileage may vary. I also much prefer the 1980s VPO recording and was distressed to see that it has gone missing, so I reordered it. I was tempted to order the VPO Seventh as well, but the EMI BPO 7th is in my collection and I can't imagine topping that.

[Petrushka]

I just played that BPO mid 70s recording 2 days ago (contained in a complete set of the Bruckner Symphonies). I agree about the bass deficiencies, which I think is a constant in most DG recordings, regardless of Orchestra or venue, from that whole decade (and beyond). I didn't think the treble was all that harsh, but my system tends to be pretty treble friendly, so your mileage may vary. I also much prefer the 1980s VPO recording and was distressed to see that it has gone missing, so I reordered it. I was tempted to order the VPO Seventh as well, but the EMI BPO 7th is in my collection and I can't imagine topping that.

That 1971 BPO Bruckner 7 has a rarefied beauty of tone about it that may not be to all tastes. I find it all too distant and other worldly and demand something more earthly in my interpretations of the piece. The VPO Bruckner 7 (Karajan's last recording, by the way and worth getting for that alone) is altogether more involving and I greatly prefer it.

[Barbirollians]

That 1971 BPO Bruckner 7 has a rarefied beauty of tone about it that may not be to all tastes. I find it all too distant and other worldly and demand something more earthly in my interpretations of the piece. The VPO Bruckner 7 (Karajan's last recording, by the way and worth getting for that alone) is altogether more involving and I greatly prefer it.

I cannot agree - I think Karajan's EMI 4 and 7 are two of his very finest records.

[Barbirollians]

I cannot agree - I think Karajan's EMI 4 and 7 are two of his very finest records.

Talking to myself I am moved by the 1957 Bruckner 8 although it is slow especially the finale. It may not be quite the spiritual communing of hVK’s last recording with the VPO but nobody surely can be in doubt if the greatness of the music on listening to this performance.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Like FF I also have the CD issue of the 1957 Bruckner 8 (though mine is a later reissue coupled with overtures by Weber, Nicolai, Wagner and Mendelssohn}. Similarly, I can't find much to complain about regarding the sound either.

Karajan's much lauded 1975 DG recording still sounds unpleasant on the ear to me, rough, harsh and wholly lacking in depth, even in the latest reissue in the Karajan 1970s box.

Karajan's final recording with the VPO has its critics but I'm not among them. A sensational, and sensationally recorded account which remains my first choice. I also greatly like the DVD performance given in June 1979 with the VPO in St Florian just two weeks before I heard him perform the work with the BPO in London in a concert that will forever stay in my memory. That concert was recorded by Capital Radio (!) and I possess (don't ask) a less than ideal recording of it; the Adagio has a cut where the cassette tape obviously had to be changed and there is sundry annoying radio interference throughout. The basic sound, however, is superb and if any enterprising company (are you listening, Testament?) can get hold of the original tape it would make a fascinating release. I live in hope.

I went to that Bruckner 8 - still got the ticket stub. I’ve never heard such brass playing before or since . I suspect Capital bought a two relay option on the performance. A disc release would mean 100% fee (possibly more with digital universal rights) to the orchestra and certainly more to the HvK estate and I bet it wouldn’t be at 1979 rates either . But I could be completely wrong..,

Correction I was partly wrong. I went to the ‘81 Bruckner 5 and the ‘ 85 Ein Heldenleben . The brass comment still holds true though.