Rococo

[amateur51]

The fashion for sending celebs to look at wildlife may be recent, Throppers, but expert on-screen presenters are as old as wildlife broadcasting itself - Cousteau, Hans and Lotte Haas, Armand and Micaela Denis, Attenborough himself....voice-overs in wildlife broadcasting on the other hand are often by actors reading a script, usually Stephen Fry , with no particular understanding of what they're reading out. On-screen presenters are always going to be a matter of taste, Sister Wendy remains a mystery to me . I think Waldemar, A G-D etc are part of a great tradition going back to Kenneth Clark and possibly beyond......

And a noteless autocueless A.J.P. Taylor lecturing direct-to-camera, bow tie and all, utterly remarkable

[jean]

this was Clark on Rococo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhxgQsfPwIA

A fascinating comparison!

WJ doesn't even attempt the historical/political background, as Clark does, and from the outset Clark makes music central to the period - though that involves labelling JS Bach as unequivocally Rococo, which I still resist.

Definitely worth watching. (And though we see Clark's face quite a lot, he doesn't walk anywhere. Or sprawl.)

[Thropplenoggin]

The fashion for sending celebs to look at wildlife may be recent, Throppers, but expert on-screen presenters are as old as wildlife broadcasting itself - Cousteau, Hans and Lotte Haas, Armand and Micaela Denis, Attenborough himself....voice-overs in wildlife broadcasting on the other hand are often by actors reading a script, usually Stephen Fry , with no particular understanding of what they're reading out. On-screen presenters are always going to be a matter of taste, Sister Wendy remains a mystery to me . I think Waldemar, A G-D etc are part of a great tradition going back to Kenneth Clark and possibly beyond......

I have no problems with experts and pedagogues who know how to explain opaque ideas in an engaging, general way without patronising their audience. We don't get that, even from the soi-disant experts today. We get mouths agog and constantly reminded about how magnificent, overwhelming, splendid, etc., etc., an edifice is. The worst I saw recently was on BBC 4 about pilgrimage sites in the UK. It was utterly banal, the presenter confusing his audience with that of Blue Peter. I learned more in five minutes from Wikipedia.

Jonathan Meades is a pleasant exception but also sui generis.

[jean]

J C Fischer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Christian_Fischer

Thanks! I tried looking him up but I'd got his middle name wrong.

[ did you follow that long explanation about the coded punctuation in the name Sans, Souci. ? ]

You mean that the virgula (comma) after the sans on the facade, which also means little rod, refers to Frederick's penis, rendered useless in the course of a homosexual encounter?

I got rather lost during the subsequent explanation of the point (full stop) after souci, and failed to understand whether Frederick's impotence was a cause for concern to him or not.

[mercia]

You mean that the virgula (comma) after the sans on the facade, which also means little rod, refers to Frederick's penis, rendered useless in the course of a homosexual encounter?

I got rather lost during the subsequent explanation of the point (full stop) after souci, and failed to understand whether Frederick's impotence was a cause for concern to him or not.

ah well you understood more than I did
I couldn't decide if WJ was putting this forward as fact or conjecture

I shall have to watch again, I think I fell asleep when WJ was talking about the Virgin Mary appearing to some 14th century Cambridge scholar who was then made into a saint, not sure who that was .....

[jean]

I can help you there - it was St Simon Stock.

[jean]

this was Clark on Rococo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhxgQsfPwIA

As Clark takes us through the church of the Vierzehn Heiligen, we hear the first chorus from Bach's Christmas Oratorio - Happiness, see? Just like the Declaration of Independence, as Waldemar said (but without the Bach).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The worst I saw recently was on BBC 4 about pilgrimage sites in the UK. It was utterly banal, the presenter confusing his audience with that of Blue Peter. I learned more in five minutes from Wikipedia.

I don't quite share your dismissal of all the "soi-disant experts today", but totally agree with your assessment of this appalling production: a dire-ama!

[Ferretfancy]

I don't quite share your dismissal of all the "soi-disant experts today", but totally agree with your assessment of this appalling production: a dire-ama!

Re the pilgrim programme, it was a disaster with Simon Reeve, but to be honest I was rather surprised to see how bad he was. I can only assume that his producer and researcher were to blame

His two recent programmes following tea and coffee production were good, especially the programme about the Vietnamese coffee industry. Most of us are unaware that almost all the beans used to make instant coffee come from there. Reeve managed to summarise recent developments in a country which we seem to have forgotten about, managing to cover a lot of interesting ground in an hour.

As for Dan Cruikshank, he sets my teeth on edge. He is a very knowledgeable man, and his books on history and architecture are excellent, but oh dear ! ( As he well might whisper )

[mercia]

I can help you there - it was St Simon Stock.

ah yes, thanks

[ardcarp]

Wasn't Kenneth Clark wonderful? He got The American Declaration, Love and Happiness into the first minute. It must be a generational thing...either people can't listen to anyone explaining anything any more, or producers think they can't.

[Serial_Apologist]

Wasn't Kenneth Clark wonderful? He got The American Declaration, Love and Happiness into the first minute. It must be a generational thing...either people can't listen to anyone explaining anything any more, or producers think they can't.

He got a lot of stick from John Berger, in Ways of Seeing, from what I remember...

There was some American woman brought onto Toady this morning, giving her views on Rococo music. Asked, she said the difference between it, as epitomiosed by CPE Bach, and Baroque as ditto his dad, was that Rococo music dealt with more than one emotion in a piece. This limited and somewhat conjectural opinion went unchallenged, natch.

[french frank]

Asked, she said the difference between it, as epitomiosed by CPE Bach, and Baroque as ditto his dad, was that Rococo music dealt with more than one emotion in a piece. This limited and somewhat conjectural opinion went unchallenged, natch.

I thought rococo was feminine baroque, and baroque was masculine rococo. Not sure that's that's a lot more helpful as regards music. Or anything, really.

[Anna]

I thought rococo was feminine baroque, and baroque was masculine rococo. Not sure that's that's a lot more helpful as regards music. Or anything, really.

I've only used the term Rococo when it comes to architecture, porcelain, etc., but I think it's definitely feminine, far more elaborate, intricate, lots of twiddly bits, like Rameau. (confess haven't caught up with the programme yet!)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I had always associated the Rococo with the Stile galante - the period between Bach and Haydn: the time when Bach's sons and the Mannheim school were working as somebody mentioned earlier. Can't comment on its gender specificity.