No Association Whatsoever Thread

[Serial_Apologist]

I've seen very few wasps in the last few years . We had a wasps' nest in our shed last year. but they seemed to abandon it before August. And we've had far fewer flies in the house. Many birds rely on catching insects for their food , so the bird and insect population is declining. This has a knock-on effect in the pollination of plants. It's all part of the great change in nature. Almost incredibly, there are still some people who deny that humanity is to blame.

Denial in general seems to be becoming a hallmark of our times, it has to be said. There's a whole discussion waiting in the wings to be had on this subject.

[Padraig]

Denial in general seems to be becoming a hallmark of our times, it has to be said. There's a whole discussion waiting in the wings to be had on this subject.

No it isn't . . .no it doesn't . . .no there is not.

[french frank]

No it isn't . . .no it doesn't . . .no there is not.

Radical, lunatic, crazy. They'll destroy our/their [delete as appropriate] country

[Serial_Apologist]

Nest Tuesday (Sept 3), on Radio 4!

1600 hrs - Serial Offender: Arnold Schoenberg's Twelve Tone Adventure
Kate Molleson explores the work of Arnold Schoenberg, creator of the 12-tone system, and asks why his complex music is not performed as regularly as other composers' works. With contributions from music critic Paul Morley, academics Laura Tunbridge and Jonathan Cross, and the New Yorker's classical music critic, Alex Ross.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0022kng

Why not on Radio 3? I can only surmise that with the new youthful demographic in mind, Radio 3 is considered no longer relevant or appropriate, since no one will be old enough to be interested in, or have even heard of Schoenberg, unless they've had the extraordinary good fortune to have caught broadcasts of Verklarte Nacht, which everyone agrees on as representing Schoenberg at his most characteristic... or maybe that should be acceptable.

[smittims]

As a lifelong Schoenbergian I'm torn here. Bravo Radio 4 for doing such a programme. A valid topic, a worthy cause. I'm not looking forward to listening to Kate Molleson's voice, though; but as the programme isn't really for me but for people who have heard of Schoenberg and would like (if secretly) to enjoy his music, maybe she's the right person to get more people to listen.

Arguably ,this programme is on Radio 4 because it shouldn't need to be on Radio 3. Radio 3 is supposed to be (or was at one time) for people who don't need 100-year-old music explaining or justifying to them. This is were I'm really missing Sandy Goehr. I'd love to hear what he would say about all this. I remember him saying that when he was a boy his father used to get letters from Schoenberg and he came to imagine him as a distant irate grandparent.

[oddoneout]

As a lifelong Schoenbergian I'm torn here. Bravo Radio 4 for doing such a programme. A valid topic, a worthy cause. I'm not looking forward to listening to Kate Molleson's voice, though; but as the programme isn't really for me but for people who have heard of Schoenberg and would like (if secretly) to enjoy his music, maybe she's the right person to get more people to listen.

Arguably ,this programme is on Radio 4 because it shouldn't need to be on Radio 3. Radio 3 is supposed to be (or was at one time) for people who don't need 100-year-old music explaining or justifying to them. This is were I'm really missing Sandy Goehr. I'd love to hear what he would say about all this. I remember him saying that when he was a boy his father used to get letters from Schoenberg and he came to imagine him as a distant irate grandparent.

That assumes that all R3 listeners know everything(or at least a lot) about all types of music. Even in the good old days, I seem to remember that there were programmes talking about composers/works, presumably on the basis there were listeners who didn't know everything or were open to perhaps finding out something they didn't know.
However what this does seem to illustrate to me is that R3 is no longer seen as the place to learn more about music, with the honourable exception perhaps of survivors(but for how much longer) such as COTW and EMS. It's a playlist show station for the most part, with some genuinely live performances, (largely on an annual basis, aka Proms) and more extended episodes of talk dressed up in lowest common denominator marketing clothes for endless advert use and "wider appeal".

[smittims]

Ah now, to be fair, I didn't say that, only that they shouldn't need 100-year old music explaining to them. I well recall Pied Piper, The Young Idea (which incidentally always played works complete) Denis Matthews' lecture-recitals about Brahms and Hans Keller's wonderful two-hour lecture on Schoenberg's quartets, which were aimed at the teacher in Leicester if not the man on the Clapham omnibus.

I believe Radio 3 still aims to educate, but oddly they never seem to talk about the music. That, for me, is the difference. They pretend they do, but they're usually talking about the composer's private life (see, Schumann suffered anxiety; if you're affected ring our helpline number) or the story of the music . I admit I don't listent to The Listening Service. Does he dare to mention a modulation, or a cadence?

[oddoneout]

Ah now, to be fair, I didn't say that, only that they shouldn't need 100-year old music explaining to them. I well recall Pied Piper, The Young Idea (which incidentally always played works complete) Denis Matthews' lecture-recitals about Brahms and Hans Keller's wonderful two-hour lecture on Schoenberg's quartets, which were aimed at the teacher in Leicester if not the man on the Clapham omnibus.

I believe Radio 3 still aims to educate, but oddly they never seem to talk about the music. That, for me, is the difference. They pretend they do, but they're usually talking about the composer's private life (see, Schumann suffered anxiety; if you're affected ring our helpline number) or the story of the music . I admit I don't listent to The Listening Service. Does he dare to mention a modulation, or a cadence?

Because if they do they shouldn't be(correction, shouldn't have been) listening to R3?

[smittims]

I think we're at cross-purposes. I didn't mean that Radio 3 listeners could be assumed to be conversant with the twelve-tone method, only that they could be expected to know that enjoyment and satisfaction can be gained by listening to a piece from beginning to end for its own sake rather than having a highly-paid 'presetnnter' telling them a story.

[LMcD]

R3 is no longer seen as the place to learn more about music, with the honourable exception perhaps of survivors(but for how much longer) such as COTW and EMS. It's a playlist show station for the most part, with some genuinely live performances, (largely on an annual basis, aka Proms) and more extended episodes of talk dressed up in lowest common denominator marketing clothes for endless advert use and "wider appeal".

Keeping my expectations well and truly screwed down has enabled me to settle for wistful resignation rather than get angry or upset, but I listen less frequently and don't expect to learn that much, although Petroc provides basic details and interesting titbits for a number of pieces on Breakfast. I would also add Private Passions to the limited list of honourable exceptions to the general trend.

[Pulcinella]

I think we're at cross-purposes. I didn't mean that Radio 3 listeners could be assumed to be conversant with the twelve-tone method, only that they could be expected to know that enjoyment and satisfaction can be gained by listening to a piece from beginning to end for its own sake rather than having a highly-paid 'presetnnter' telling them a story.

That may well be true, but football commentators probably expect their viewers/listeners to be quite conversant with the surely more complicated offside rules of play.

[LMcD]

That may well be true, but football commentators probably expect their viewers/listeners to be quite conversant with the surely more complicated offside rules of play.

Perhaps they can now explain the mysterious workings of VAR.

[Serial_Apologist]

I think we're at cross-purposes. I didn't mean that Radio 3 listeners could be assumed to be conversant with the twelve-tone method, only that they could be expected to know that enjoyment and satisfaction can be gained by listening to a piece from beginning to end for its own sake rather than having a highly-paid 'presetnnter' telling them a story.

There was a time when little of the artist's biography was mentioned, almost as if the sort of person he or she was and the times which informed their work were merely of econdary importance. I was glad when a more existentialist approach began being applied, believing the meaning of anything to be more rounded in context. That said, the indicator has undoubtedly tended recently to go too far in the other direction so that the listener is offered little guidance as to the evolution, style and placing of music in its relationships with other contemporaneous and historic developments. This is in any case further exacerbated by contextualisation misapplied by leaping backwards and forwards making hay with chronology, prioritising the suppositional over evidenced back up. The work has to be presented on its own terms rather than by way of mythologies masquerading as alternatives to difficult aesthetic principles, applied to it by others post hoc. Shaping and shaped exist in diological interplay - to over-emphasise one side is to under-represent the other. The once so dependable COTW in particular has become a guilty party in the myth making game.

[oddoneout]

I think we're at cross-purposes. I didn't mean that Radio 3 listeners could be assumed to be conversant with the twelve-tone method, only that they could be expected to know that enjoyment and satisfaction can be gained by listening to a piece from beginning to end for its own sake rather than having a highly-paid 'presetnnter' telling them a story.

I think we may well be, but I was rather concerned at what seemed to be elements of the old "not for the likes of them". However, taking your example, if a first encounter with an unknown piece of music proves difficult there is perhaps a case for some explanation beforehand to increase the chance that it will be heard all through, or at least given more of a chance. I didn't hear the R4 item so I don't know the approach or at what level the content was pitched, but I don't think the idea is wrong in itself. But as with other examples that have been on R4, why not on R3, if it's supposed to be the home of such music? Not least as having something rather more related to the broadcast content than the chat show style content-lite material that's being foisted on us now would be an improvement.

[oddoneout]

Keeping my expectations well and truly screwed down has enabled me to settle for wistful resignation rather than get angry or upset, but I listen less frequently and don't expect to learn that much, although Petroc provides basic details and interesting titbits for a number of pieces on Breakfast. I would also add Private Passions to the limited list of honourable exceptions to the general trend.

I didn't include PP as I was referring to programmes that have explanation of music in some form as their aim, rather than the wider aspect of the few remaining programmes of worth in general.