Nelson Mandela RIP

[Richard Tarleton]

May I venture a note of dissent to the growing hagiography: he was I think sadly misguided. Government by the wise and fair is a goal infinitely more desirable than government by the populace at large or hoi polloi.

Oh dear. This is probably best ignored on a day like today but just to say the Today programme has just played John Humphrys' interview with the

wise and fair

PW Botha. No chance #13 (and responses to it) could be deleted is there? It demeans this forum.

[Richard Tarleton]

The greatest human being it has been my privilege (to borrow from President Obama) to share time with on this earth.

[Beef Oven!]

May I venture a note of dissent to the growing hagiography: he was I think sadly misguided. Government by the wise and fair is a goal infinitely more desirable than government by the populace at large or hoi polloi.

One of the most powerful symbols of struggle against tyranny and an icon in black history, may rest in peace

Not so much misguided as cynically misused, he was only human after all.

Democracy is to be preferred to what you euphemistically call 'government by the wise and fair'.

[gamba]

I have a very moving public performance of Nkosi Sikeleli Africa which I found long ago on utube.

I cannot avoid repeating it over & over again. The loveliest of all anthems . Very sad, very appropriate.

[Beef Oven!]

No chance #13 (and responses to it) could be deleted is there? It demeans this forum.

I hope there is no chance, or else it's a bit of that 'wise and fair government' that some of us find fatally dangerous.

[Stephen Whitaker]

If Britain had been subjected to foreign invasion and control in the way that black South Africa was, then Churchill would have been a terrorist too.

"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender"

[Beef Oven!]

If Britain had been subjected to foreign invasion and control in the way that black South Africa was, then Churchill would have been a terrorist too.

"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender"

I don't think Mandela was a terrorist. And why 'black South Africa'? Is that like 'white Europe'?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

a good man of iron courage and fortitude ... his speech after release was one of the great moments in 20th century world history ... no person had more moral authority and i think we were all graced by his presence in our humanity

[Stephen Whitaker]

I don't think Mandela was a terrorist either , that was rather the point,
that the label might have been attached to Churchill's avowed intentions.

OK so, 'black South Africa' was a lazy usage but it is not like 'white Europe'
because Europe is a continent and does not equate to a nation or state.

[Beef Oven!]

I don't think Mandela was a terrorist either , that was rather the point,
that the label might have been attached to Churchill's avowed intentions.

OK so, 'black South Africa' was a lazy usage but it is not like 'white Europe'
because Europe is a continent and does not equate to a nation or state.

You were making a point about Winston Churchill? It didn't read like that.

Africa is a continent too and was without nation states, just as Europe was once. 'Black South Africa' is as wrong as 'White Europe', therefore.

[amateur51]

For me, Mandela and Tutu are the two most impressive men of the twentieth century. Their dignity in the face of tremendous intimidation and aggression was inspirational and they counter-intuitive call for peace and reconciliation was a model that others would do well to follow. Mandela's call for the newly liberated RSA to become 'a rainbow nation' gave hope to dispossessed people around the world.

Thank you Madiba.

[eighthobstruction]

A joy to be able to celebrate this mans life....I've had a small postcard photo of him by my desk for 25 years....as inspiration....

[Beef Oven!]

For me, Mandela and Tutu are the two most impressive men of the twentieth century. Their dignity in the face of tremendous intimidation and aggression was inspirational and they counter-intuitive call for peace and reconciliation was a model that others would do well to follow. Mandela's call for the newly liberated RSA to become 'a rainbow nation' gave hope to dispossessed people around the world.

Thank you Madiba.

It's pleasing that someone has mentioned Tutu. Unsung. A giant of a man

[MrGongGong]

Diverted to the cellar ...... RIP

[Boilk]

He has died this evening - RIP probably the greatest man of my lifetime.

I find superlatives of this kind most unhelpful, but of course many get caught up in the maelstrom of emotion that follows the death of a high profile campaigner for social justice. Of course such hyperbole ("greatest man of my lifetime") are nourished by the mainstream media so as to become unquestionable perceived wisdom. Let us please not forget that there have been many unswervingly principled individuals of the last century who, having found themselves and their people living under an oppressive regime committed themselves to campaign tirelessly for social justice, and (at great risk to themselves and their family) advocate civil disobedience, and were subsequently incarcerated for their unshakable convictions. And here's the important bit ... for many such people the dice fell very differently than they did for Mandela, they perished in labour camps, or were simply executed or never heard from again. There was no happy ending. Can we really say that these individuals, whose causes and plights didn't benefit from the media spotlight, were any less courageous, self-sacrificing or principled than Mandela?

Nelson Mandela a great man? Undoubtedly. But the "greatest man of our lifetime" ... a bit of a slight to all the forgotten Mandelas elsewhere.