Turing test

[Frances_iom]

classic - http://www.ricklatona.com/wp-content..._youreadog.gif

[Dave2002]

I must say that, because I am the only thing that I know exists, all this wonderful music I listen to daily, monthly, yearly, is all my own, whichever composer I ascribe it to. I think I'm the absolute genius of the universe! Much the same can be said for literature, painting and anything else you like. Peach Melba? Rubbish! Peach Pabmusic!! And Hitler and all the rest were figments of my own imagination, merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative (a neat quote from myself that I otherwise ascribe to the fictitious W. S. Gilbert).

Perhaps, like "me", you are a masochist. You "imagine" pain and discomfort when you "go" to the dentist. "You" may be a figment of "your" own imagination, but "you" have no control over all your experiences.

[Dave2002]

classic - http://www.ricklatona.com/wp-content..._youreadog.gif

frances

Exactly my feelings.

Felix.

[Pabmusic]

Perhaps, like "me", you are a masochist. You "imagine" pain and discomfort when you "go" to the dentist. "You" may be a figment of "your" own imagination, but "you" have no control over all your experiences.

You expressed that far better than I could have done.

[Solipsism is just about the silliest philosophy ever!]

[vinteuil]

There was a young lady from Deal
Who denied that sensation was real.
When she shrieked as a pin
Pierced her sensitive skin
Said: "It's the pain that I think I can feel."

[Pabmusic]

Perhaps, like "me", you are a masochist. You "imagine" pain and discomfort when you "go" to the dentist. "You" may be a figment of "your" own imagination, but "you" have no control over all your experiences.

Then I must be imagining the idiomotor responses that prepare our bodies to do things before our brains have engaged.

[Serial_Apologist]

Eastern philosophies, as I understand them, would not have any difficulty with this issue.

The stone on the ground outside the church has a consciousness, a consciousness which is apparent, when coming into my area of awareness.

A post on this forum has its own consciousness. It may have been posted by a computer robot, or a human being. But as I become aware of the post, I become aware of the (virtual) life and consciousness within the post, and can respond within the limits of my mental faculties. I'm sure I could find an approprate quote in the Upanishads on the subject of IT, if you can give me a month or two.

I don't have the Upanishads (or the Baghavgita, for that matter), but Zen has held a strong appeal and below are two stories I've reproduced from Paul Reps's "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones":

"The Stone Mind

Hogen, a Chinese Zen teacher, lived alone in a small temple in the country. One day four travelling monks appeared and asked if they might make a fire in his yard to warm themselves.

Whie they were building the fire, Hogen heard them arguing about subjectivity and objectivity. He joined them and said: 'There is a big stone. Do you consider it to be inside our outside your mind?'

One of the monks replied: 'From a Buddhist viewpoint everything is an objectification of mind, so I would say that the stone is inside my mind'.

'Your head must feel very heavy', observed Hogen, 'if you are carrying around a stone like that in your mind'".

And:

"Nothing Exists

Yamaoka Tesshu, as a young student of Zen, visited one master after another. He called upon Dokuon of Shokoku.

Desiring to show his attainment, he said, 'The mind, Buddha, and sentient beings, after all, do not exist. The true nature of phenomena is emptiness. There is no realisation, no delusion, no sage, no mediocrity. There is no giving and nothing to be received'.

Dokuon, who was smoking quietly, said nothing. Suddenly he whacked Yamaoka with his bamboo pipe. This made the youth quite angry.

'If nothing exists', enquired Dokuon, 'where did this anger come from?'".

Finally:

"Flower Shower

Subhuti was Buddha's disciple. He was able to understand the potency of emptiness, the viewpoint that nothing exists except in its relationship of subjectivity and objectivity.

One day Sughuti, in a mood of sublime emptiness, waas sitting under a tree. Flowers began to fall about him.

'We are praising you for your discourse on emptiness', the gods whispered to him.

'But I have not spoken of emptiness', said Subhuti.

'You have not spoken of emptiness, we have not heard emptiness' responded the gods. 'This is the true emptiness'. And blossoms showered upon Subhuti as rain".

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

ooops but your brain has already engaged long before you are aware if at all

[Pabmusic]

ooops but your brain has already engaged long before you are aware if at all

[Dave2002]

ooops but your brain has already engaged long before you are aware if at all

Up to a point I think.

I believe experiments done with cats (I mentioned Felix earlier) walking along ladders with missing rungs were able to show that there was "intelligent" motor activity to compensate for each missing rung before any brain activity. I'd have to look up the reference, but it was a serious experiment, and the results were a surprise.

[Pabmusic]

Up to a point I think.

I believe experiments done with cats (I mentioned Felix earlier) walking along ladders with missing rungs were able to show that there was "intelligent" motor activity to compensate for each missing rung before any brain activity. I'd have to look up the reference, but it was a serious experiment, and the results were a surprise.

I think this is right. But now we have MRI scans it has been shown that when a person does something (any conscious activity) the relevant part of the brain sends contemporaneous messages to (1) the conscious part and (2) the relevant muscles (etc.).* But - and this is the scary part - the relevant muscles (etc.) have already begun to prepare themselves before the messages are send. It's the end of the notion of free will, of course.

* Which of itself means that the action has begun before we're conscious of it!

[Thropplenoggin]

I think this is right. But now we have MRI scans it has been shown that when a person does something (any conscious activity) the relevant part of the brain sends contemporaneous messages to (1) the conscious part and (2) the relevant muscles (etc.).* But - and this is the scary part - the relevant muscles (etc.) have already begun to prepare themselves before the messages are send. It's the end of the notion of free will, of course.

* Which of itself means that the action has begun before we're conscious of it!

Hmm. Try telling that to 'compatibilist' Daniel Dennett, or Daniel Clement "Dan" Dennett III as he's known to his chums.

These experiments are in their very early stages. MRI scans, so beloved of the neuroscience quacks to Suddenly Explain Everything (and write a bestselling book about it), don't actually reveal an awful lot. Even quantum physics may allow for free will: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-sta...l_of_free_will

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The way this figment of your imagination (the part that has your well-being at "heart") likes to think of it, Dave, is that if your subconscious is capable of creating characters as different from each other as Caliban, Brassbandmaestro, Eighthobstruction and akacalum (to name but seven) then it's a subconscious you can be really proud of.

So why does it have such difficulty remembering where the rest of you has put your keys?

[vinteuil]

I think this is right. But now we have MRI scans it has been shown that when a person does something (any conscious activity) the relevant part of the brain sends contemporaneous messages to (1) the conscious part and (2) the relevant muscles (etc.).* But - and this is the scary part - the relevant muscles (etc.) have already begun to prepare themselves before the messages are send. It's the end of the notion of free will, of course.

* Which of itself means that the action has begun before we're conscious of it!

... but it's still 'me', and 'my brain'. It may be that parts of it are subconscious, and that the conscious brain post-rationalises, claiming the 'choice' as part of its conscious work, even if in error. But it's still 'me', 'my brain' (even if using those bits which may be less or more aware, less or more 'self' conscious of what's going on). The notion / problem of freewill remains, I think, in the domain of the philosophers rather than of the neuroscientists.

[Beef Oven!]

I think this is right. But now we have MRI scans it has been shown that when a person does something (any conscious activity) the relevant part of the brain sends contemporaneous messages to (1) the conscious part and (2) the relevant muscles (etc.).* But - and this is the scary part - the relevant muscles (etc.) have already begun to prepare themselves before the messages are send. It's the end of the notion of free will, of course.

* Which of itself means that the action has begun before we're conscious of it!

The brain sending contemporaneous messages would be disastrous on a ladder. Simultaneous is to be preferred