8 composers you can live without

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But since serial composition is a method and not a style, you can't always tell whether a piece of music you hear has been composed that way.

I thought cheesey meant that they all had an "er" sound in their names - Schönberg, Berg, Webern, Gerhard, Steravinsky, Eliserbeth Lutyens ...

[Richard Barrett]

I thought cheesey meant that they all had an "er" sound in their names - Schönberg, Berg, Webern, Gerhard, Steravinsky, Eliserbeth Lutyens ...

Gosh, you're right, I hadn't thought of that. But - that must mean Babbitt, Stockhausen and Nono weren't serial composers! This makes the Snowden disclosures look trivial.

[Thropplenoggin]

Gosh, you're right, I hadn't thought of that. But - that must mean Babbitt, Stockhausen and Nono weren't serial composers! This makes the Snowden disclosures look trivial.

Egad! What has Lord Snowden been saying now?!

[cheesehoven]

But since serial composition is a method and not a style, you can't always tell whether a piece of music you hear has been composed that way.

To say that serial pieces do not possess certain stylistic traits is disingenuous.

[Serial_Apologist]

To say that serial pieces do not possess certain stylistic traits is disingenuous.

But in #178 you said...

(Sorry - I must be imagining things).

[cheesehoven]

Sorry but where's the contradiction?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Gosh, you're right, I hadn't thought of that. But - that must mean Babbitt, Stockhausen and Nono weren't serial composers! This makes the Snowden disclosures look trivial.

Miltern, KerlHeinz, Lerigi?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

To say that serial pieces do not possess certain stylistic traits is disingenuous.

Can we clarify, please, cheesey? Do you mean that each Serial piece possesses a certain stylistic trait within itself; or that many serial pieces written by the same composer have such a "possession"; or that Berg's Violin Concerto, Barraqué's Piano Sonata and Gerhard's Fourth Symphony (for example) share "certain stylistic traits"? Traits that they also share with Schönberg's Third String Quartet, Stravinsky's Requiem Canticles and Babbitt's Septet But Equal, but not Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms, Messiaen's Oiseaux Exotiques or Carter's Symphony for Three Orchestras?

[cheesehoven]

I am sorry if my meaning has been misconstrued here. I thought my contribution (to what I mistakenly thought was a light hearted thread) was clear enough, but obviously I was wrong, unless certain people here are willfully trying to misconstrue?
It seems to me obvious that there are certain stylistic criteria that one must use in order for something to be called serial or any other form. These tags can be loosely applied but that does not mean they do not exist. For example, in serialism that the highest note in a phrase should be brief so as not to draw too much attention to itself or that no note should be played until all other notes have been heard. Do you deny these represent stylistic traits?

[Serial_Apologist]

I am sorry if my meaning has been misconstrued here. I thought my contribution (to what I mistakenly thought was a light hearted thread) was clear enough, but obviously I was wrong, unless certain people here are willfully trying to misconstrue?
It seems to me obvious that there are certain stylistic criteria that one must use in order for something to be called serial or any other form. These tags can be loosely applied but that does not mean they do not exist. For example, in serialism that the highest note in a phrase should be brief so as not to draw too much attention to itself or that no note should be played until all other notes have been heard. Do you deny these represent stylistic traits?

No more, I would have thought, than that music should harmonically resolve itself every so often in pre-atonal Schoenberg music.

(Smilies are equivalent to resolutions when deciding if a thread is serious or not).

[MrGongGong]

Is a plagal cadence a "stylistic" device ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I am sorry if my meaning has been misconstrued here. I thought my contribution (to what I mistakenly thought was a light hearted thread) was clear enough, but obviously I was wrong, unless certain people here are willfully trying to misconstrue?

You're right - and my own er teasings weren't meant to be construed as offensive. But nor am I "willfully" "misconstruing" what you've said - you've voiced opinions that I've frequently encountered, but never really understood. Barraqué's Piano Sonata doesn't sound stylistically similar to Schoenberg's Violin Concerto - and Stravinsky's serial In Memoriam, Dylan Thomas sounds stylistically closer to his non-Serial Mass than it does to either Schoenberg or Barraqué.

It seems to me obvious that there are certain stylistic criteria that one must use in order for something to be called serial or any other form. These tags can be loosely applied but that does not mean they do not exist. For example, in serialism that the highest note in a phrase should be brief so as not to draw too much attention to itself or that no note should be played until all other notes have been heard. Do you deny these represent stylistic traits?

First, (and this might seem nit-picking) but aren't these "technical" rather than "stylistic" criteria. Do not Berg and Webern's works sound stylistically different from each other - more so than the difference between Webern's serial and non-serial works?

Second, I do not know any Serial work in which "the highest note in a phrase should be brief so as not to draw too much attention to itself" - and the openings of Moses und Aron or the Requiem Canticles immediately put paid to the "no note should be played until all other notes have been heard" idea - even if we don't mention Serial works that use Series with fewer or more than twelve notes.

I understand a "stylistic trait" to be something like Tchaikovsky's fondness for scalic and sequential passagework, Webern's liking for ending pieces with a sudden forte descending figure, Chopin's delight in rubato, Reich's preference for tempo meccanico. Serialism is just a way of putting material together - once a composer has decided to use the technique(s), the sound of their Music can be as lushly heady as Berg's Lulu, as astringent as Barraqué's Piano Sonata, as coolly refined as Webern's Symphony, as lyrical as Dallapiccola's Goethe-lieder, as perky as Babbitt's All Set, as elemental as Stockhausen's Gruppen. And I do not hear any common "stylistic traits" between these works.

[cheesehoven]

Thanks for your serious response FerneyHough and perhaps I was wrong in using stylist as a term. I'm not sure. What is interesting is how defensive the whole serial debate is. If I had said "all baroque music sounds the same to me", I think it would have passed without much comment. But criticise atonality and the instant rebuttal industry moves into place.

I guess it goes to prove how different people's ears are Ferney. I can hear what I term these stylistic tendencies in serialism notwithstanding composer's individualistic takes on them and personally find it an annoyance. Anyway I never posted here to set out a universal law merely to state my opinion on the matter. Incidentally I also hear this "straight jacketing" in the classical style (in the strictest sense) which is why I put Haydn at the top of the list of composers I could live without. I could almost have written "any classical composer" instead, again without much controversy I think.

So I guess plagal cadences can be stylistic traits in certain contexts.

[Serial_Apologist]

Thanks for your serious response FerneyHough and perhaps I was wrong in using stylist as a term. I'm not sure. What is interesting is how defensive the whole serial debate is. If I had said "all baroque music sounds the same to me", I think it would have passed without much comment. But criticise atonality and the instant rebuttal industry moves into place.

Unless you are claiming that serialism's defenders are having to argue against evidence to the contrary that all serial music sounds the same, I don't see how you can say they are being defensive. It might, in fact, be arguable that Baroque music does indeed show more aesthetically and stylistically in common than serialism, if you take comparisons between the composers and works cited by Ferneyhoughgeliebte.

I guess it goes to prove how different people's ears are Ferney. I can hear what I term these stylistic tendencies in serialism notwithstanding composer's individualistic takes on them and personally find it an annoyance.

But, apart from dubiously citing highest pitches as being subject to some sort of time-limitation, we are given no evidence for what you hear to go on. Are you sure someone has not been pulling your leg?

[MrGongGong]

Maybe THIS

in certain contexts.

Is the key phrase ?