8 composers you can live without

[Nick Armstrong]

And is Chopin "better" when not "messed around with" by Godowsky or Bach by Liszt and Busoni (or sometimes both)?

God yes !!!!!!

[aeolium]

And is Chopin "better" when not "messed around with" by Godowsky or Bach by Liszt and Busoni (or sometimes both)?

Absurd to think of an arrangement of Bach being better than the original, but I love many of Busoni's arrangements. No-one who dislikes arrangements of Bach need ever hear them but I'm glad they exist. And Busoni did a considerable service in making a generation more aware of Bach's keyboard music, which might have otherwise languished unheard.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Absurd to think of an arrangement of Bach being better than the original, but I love many of Busoni's arrangements.

Oh, me too; in some ways, I prefer these to Bach played on the Piano (Gould & Fischer excepted). Come payday, I shall be investing in the recent 3CD set of Ronald Stevenson's Piano Music, which involves lots of arrangements of other composers' work - including Stevenson's solo Piano Transcription of Busoni's two-piano transcription of Mozart's F minor Fantasy (an almost Escheresque concept). Like Van Goch's reworking of Rembrandt, such transcriptions are fascinating insights into the workings of two creative minds. I have never got on with Godowski (I spent a whole week in penance to ahinton listening to his Chopin, and emerged unrepentant from the process) but Busoni and Stevenson are very worth hearing - but in no way better (or even "better") than the originals.

No-one who dislikes arrangements of Bach need ever hear them but I'm glad they exist. And Busoni did a considerable service in making a generation more aware of Bach's keyboard music, which might have otherwise languished unheard.

[ahinton]

Oh, me too; in some ways, I prefer these to Bach played on the Piano (Gould & Fischer excepted). Come payday, I shall be investing in the recent 3CD set of Ronald Stevenson's Piano Music, which involves lots of arrangements of other composers' work - including Stevenson's solo Piano Transcription of Busoni's two-piano transcription of Mozart's F minor Fantasy (an almost Escheresque concept). Like Van Goch's reworking of Rembrandt, such transcriptions are fascinating insights into the workings of two creative minds. I have never got on with Godowski (I spent a whole week in penance to ahinton listening to his Chopin, and emerged unrepentant from the process) but Busoni and Stevenson are very worth hearing - but in no way better (or even "better") than the originals.

My point here was that Chopin, Bach et al remain intact and wonderful, hence my inverted commas around "better"; Chopin and Bach are unchanged by what transcribers may later do, just as Vivalidi remains unchanged by Bach's transcription of his work.

Sorry Godowsky's not for you; he's not for everyone, that's for sure! Maybe try his Johann Strauss transcriptions (as played by Hamelin, for example)...

[Vile Consort]

Even worse - arrangements of Bach's organ music for ... wait for it ... THE ORGAN!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

My point here was that Chopin, Bach et al remain intact and wonderful, hence by inv erted commas around "better"; Chopin and Bach are unchanged by what transcribers may later do, just as Vivalidi remains unchanged by Bach's transcription of his work.

Aha! Yes, I misunderstood you. You are, of course, quite right.

Sorry Godowsky's not for you; he's not for everyone, that's for sure! Maybe try his Johann Strauss transcriptions (as played by Hamelin, for example)...

Nooooooooo .....

I like Martin Anderson's description of "Godowski's Fabergé originals" (in contrast to Stevenson's "rough energy"): I loathe Fabergé!

(I did quite like this, however:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIwWWc6JkbA)

[ahinton]

I like Martin Anderson's description of "Godowski's Fabergé originals"

I think that he may have gotten that from a certain Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji but it's none the worse for recycling!

[aeolium]

including Stevenson's solo Piano Transcription of Busoni's two-piano transcription of Mozart's F minor Fantasy (an almost Escheresque concept). Like Van Goch's reworking of Rembrandt, such transcriptions are fascinating insights into the workings of two creative minds.

Three creative minds, surely What an interesting idea - a transcription of a transcription, and the original work for Mechanical Clock! I must try and hear it (and Busoni's transcription). I know some of the Busoni cadenzas to Mozart concertos but hardly know any of his Mozart transcriptions.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sLGdPLsvDc

[Nick Armstrong]

... ersatz not echt : nicely put.

Tallis is better when not messed around with by Vaughan Williams, Couperin when not messed around with by Respighi. In my opinion.

True - but it is also true (impo) that VW and Respighi are both very good when they are ...ahem... "messing around with" Tallis, Couperin (or Rameau, Pasquini et al in 'The Birds')... or Bach - I love the Respighi orchestration of the C minor Passacaglia and Fugue... and indeed all the arrangements on this favourite CD, including RVW's... and especially Schoenberg's:



Hochachtung rather than Ersatz, I think.

PS: Godowski 'doing' Chopin is fun... but the originals come as a blessed relief.

[Richard Barrett]

Of course very many performances of the music of JS Bach are "arrangements"! for example when cantatas are performed by choirs, or the "Brandenburg" Concertos by orchestras. And of course the idea that musical materials are sacrosanct and not to be "tampered with" is a relatively recent phenomenon in musical history. I have a feeling that its days are numbered too.

[vinteuil]

Sir Velo's query in #129 was why, given my liking for Tudor polyphony and the baroque, I was not keen on Vaughan Williams and Respighi, composers influenced by such styles.

I s'pose it's cos I don't particularly enjoy Vaughan Williams or Respighi!

I certainly enjoy Bach messed around with by Busoni - but then I enjoy Busoni.

So it's not perhaps so much the messing about as who the messers about are...

[aeolium]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sLGdPLsvDc

Thanks, ferney - fascinating

[Nick Armstrong]

I certainly enjoy Bach messed around with by Busoni - but then I enjoy Busoni.

So it's not perhaps so much the messing about as who the messers about are...

Just remembered who you remind me of...





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You should be in showbiz, vindemesse!

[ahinton]

Of course very many performances of the music of JS Bach are "arrangements"! for example when cantatas are performed by choirs, or the "Brandenburg" Concertos by orchestras. And of course the idea that musical materials are sacrosanct and not to be "tampered with" is a relatively recent phenomenon in musical history. I have a feeling that its days are numbered too.

Loud cheers for this! Thank you very much for your input of great good sense.