8 composers you can live without

[scottycelt]

There are (at least) two other musical ones:
The Symphonisches Präludium which is attributed to Mahler, according to the latest research, might be a piece by Bruckner.
The trio of the scherzo in Bruckner's Romantic symphony (1878 and later versions) is revisited in Mahler's Resurrection.

The very first time Mahler's name appeared in print was as the arranger of the piano-reduction of Bruckner's Third symphony, btw.

Yes, Roehre, I was aware of that piano-reduction but must listen to the Mahler 2 again!

The composers are so different, though. Bruckner seems to be gazing into outer space contemplating the miracle of the universe whilst Mahler seems to be much more self-absorbed, forever going from one emotional crisis/turning-point to the next.

An over-simplistic view maybe?

[scottycelt]

You must go to a classy pub, Roehre !
Neither are really popular topics of conversation with my mates.

And Brahms is ... ?

[Roehre]

A bit off topic, but there we are....

You must go to a classy pub, Roehre !
Neither are really popular topics of conversation with my mates.

Actually six of us had a discussion about classical music in general, and this was one of the subjects which was touched, in restaurant Breitner a week or so ago. Our 6 course meal started early around 6pm, and we left as we had to avoid missing the last bus/train in order to reach home at 12.30 am. Breitner is to be found nearly opposite the Stopera (Townhall/Opera house) in Amsterdam. Not cheap, but excellent food and ambiance, and with friends like these even nearly a seven hours' meal seems too short

(Other things which passed: Beethoven sketches and their influence on later generations of composers and musicologists; Schindler's falsifications in Beethoven's conversation booklets; Mahler and Rott; Pijper and Vermeulen; The diversity of The Hague "school" of composers starting with Kees van Baaren upto Louis Andriessen; why are DesPrez and Di Lasso among the greatest composers of their eras and possibly of all times; Schnittke and polystilism; French pronunciation in Sweelinck's settings of all 150 Psalms; who is likely to succeed Janssons as conductor of the Royal Concertgebouw).

[Roehre]

...The composers are so different, though. Bruckner seems to be gazing into outer space contemplating the miracle of the universe whilst Mahler seems to be much more self-absorbed, forever going from one emotional crisis/turning-point to the next.

An over-simplistic view maybe?

Maybe, but IMHO essentially true.

[Rcartes]

Ok then:
Mahler (yes, I have tried)
Britten (again, I have tried)
Rutter
Lloyd Webber
Verdi
Stockhausen
Scriabin (on my list to try again soon)
Bernstein

If you're going to try Scriabin (whom I really like though the later stuff is a bit, well, megalomaniac), you could do worse than try the piano concerto and then the 2nd symphony, two of my favorite pieces.

[Rcartes]

Here are my eight, in no particular order:

Verdi
Mendelssohn (as others have said, he deserves it for Elijah alone)
Philip Glass
Piazzola (or anyone else who writes for the accordion; one definition of a gentleman is: one who can play an accordion … but doesn't)
John Rutter
Bruckner
Johann Strauss (both)
J S Bach (all those blasted masses…)

I'd have included Lloyd Webber and Michael Nyman but they hardly count.

[Petrushka]

There are (at least) two other musical ones:
The Symphonisches Präludium which is attributed to Mahler, according to the latest research, might be a piece by Bruckner.
The trio of the scherzo in Bruckner's Romantic symphony (1878 and later versions) is revisited in Mahler's Resurrection.

The very first time Mahler's name appeared in print was as the arranger of the piano-reduction of Bruckner's Third symphony, btw.

And didn't Mahler conduct the Bruckner 6? Any chance of a timed reference point for the Bruckner 4 quote (if such it is) in the Mahler 2? This has got me intrigued!

I'm a Mahler AND Bruckner fanatic, perhaps the two most important composers in my life.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Any chance of a timed reference point for the Bruckner 4 quote (if such it is) in the Mahler 2? This has got me intrigued!

The Trio of the Bruckner Scherzo (la-da-dee-da-dada-dada-deee; la-da-deeda-dada-dada-daah) is sped up in the third movement of the Mahler (at fig 33 [page 255 in the Dover score] just before the Triangle accompanying the Oboe and Bassoon dada- dah -dah dada-daah-da-dadaddah-dada-daah melody - and at the repeat just before all hell breaks out at the end of the movement.)

I'm a Mahler AND Bruckner fanatic, perhaps the two most important composers in my life.

[Petrushka]

The Trio of the Bruckner Scherzo (la-da-dee-da-dada-dada-deee; la-da-deeda-dada-dada-daah) is sped up in the third movement of the Mahler (at fig 33 [page 255 in the Dover score] just before the Triangle accompanying the Oboe and Bassoon dada- dah -dah dada-daah-da-dadaddah-dada-daah melody - and at the repeat just before all hell breaks out at the end of the movement.)

Thanks for that. Can't believe I've not noticed this after 40 years of listening to both! Will listen out for it next time I play it. I wonder if this was conscious borrowing or just coincidence? The Liszt PC 1 quote in the Mahler 6 looks too blatant to be a coincidence and may be Mahler just latching on to a theme and making something more of it than Liszt did. Perhaps the same though process applies to the Bruckner 'quote'.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The Bruckner quotation just "grows" out of the surrounding Music - I've read it described as a "parody", but it's never sounded like that to me.

[makropulos]

And didn't Mahler conduct the Bruckner 6? Any chance of a timed reference point for the Bruckner 4 quote (if such it is) in the Mahler 2? This has got me intrigued!

I'm a Mahler AND Bruckner fanatic, perhaps the two most important composers in my life.

He certainly conducted Bruckner's 5th Symphony, but in a very heavily cut version. There's a fascinating article about it (in German):

"Schade, aber es muss(te) sein" : Zu Gustav Mahlers Strichen und Retuschen insbesondere am Beispiel der 5. Symphonie Anton Bruckners.
printed in: Bruckner-Studien. Wien 1975, pp. 187-201.

[Serial_Apologist]

The Bruckner quotation just "grows" out of the surrounding Music - I've read it described as a "parody", but it's never sounded like that to me.

Probably Bruckner's greatest earworm! How it came to my attention was by being raised in an interval talk during a broadcast from one of Luciano Berio's UK visits, in the early 1990s iirc. The talk considered the Italian avant-gardist's turn to orchestrating some of Mahler's early songs; I seem to remember this tune emerging as one from the Wunderhorn cycle, though my memory could be playing me tricks. I may have it on a cassette.

[Roehre]

And didn't Mahler conduct the Bruckner 6? ...

AFAIK only the middle movements
(But that's how Mahler 2 was treated by Richard Strauss in Berlin - the premiere of the 3 middle mvts only)

[Roehre]

The Trio of the Bruckner Scherzo (la-da-dee-da-dada-dada-deee; la-da-deeda-dada-dada-daah) is sped up in the third movement of the Mahler (at fig 33 [page 255 in the Dover score] just before the Triangle accompanying the Oboe and Bassoon dada- dah -dah dada-daah-da-dadaddah-dada-daah melody - and at the repeat just before all hell breaks out at the end of the movement.)

Thanks FHG, that's the quote I meant

[Boilk]

(Leonard) Bernstein
Birtwistle
Boulez
Glass
(Nico) Muhly
Michael Nyman
Mark Anthony Turnage
Verdi