Libya

[Guest]

Just watched one of Gaddafi's sons give a rambling speech on Libyan TV blaming the crisis on drunks, druggies and escaped prisoners. He even suggested Hague's recent phone call was a prelude to attack and occupation What extraordinary times for North Africa and the Middle East, though I do wonder why Iran is sending two warships through the Suez Canal later today.

[amateur51]

It's good to know that we're all in this together ...

While Germany is poised to save the Euro, UK goes on a spending spree in Libya

Libya conflict may cost UK £1.75bn. Research suggests defence bill may be seven times government estimate, prompting calls for full spending breakdown

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/sep/25/libya-conflict-uk-defence-bill

Remind me - what was the essential difference between our backing the people of Iraq to overthrow Saddam and our backing the people of Libya to over-throw Gadaffy?

[french frank]

Remind me - what was the essential difference between our backing the people of Iraq to overthrow Saddam and our backing the people of Libya to over-throw Gadaffy?

Well, I'd say the essential difference was that in Libya there was a reasonably organised rebel army that had already taken over a significant part of the country. That, and the situation in Tunisia and Egypt indicating a wider Arab uprising to depose its dictators.

[amateur51]

Well, I'd say the essential difference was that in Libya there was a reasonably organised rebel army that had already taken over a significant part of the country. That, and the situation in Tunisia and Egypt indicating a wide Arab uprising to depose its dictators.

So the essential difference was timing, you mean? If we'd put in some arms & a bit of training and offered a no-fly zone via the United Nations?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i rather think that the essential difference was that in Iraq the oil was destined for Exxon, whereas in Libya it is headed for Elf and BP ... if you get my drift ....

[amateur51]

i rather think that the essential difference was that in Iraq the oil was destined for Exxon, whereas in Libya it is headed for Elf and BP ... if you get my drift ....

Drift received and understood CDJ

But what's the essential difference in Syria then? Why is it appriopriate to use NATO's forces & UN's ethical shield to enable Libyan citizens to resist and overthrow Gadaffy but thus far not appropriate to resist & overthrow that nice President Bashar al-Assad?

Maybe I'm just getting trigger happy in my old age.

Would the world have been a safer place if they'd tried this strategy out in Iraq?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

not much oil in Syria ......... and a very big army and very militarised population .... enter at peril ....

keep yer eyes on Venezuela for any unseasonal 'springs'

[french frank]

not much oil in Syria ......... and a very big army and very militarised population .... enter at peril ....

It does seem common sense not to take on an enemy you can't defeat relatively cheaply, oil or no oil.

[vinteuil]

It does seem common sense not to take on an enemy you can't defeat relatively cheaply, oil or no oil.

I like your thinkin', FF old bean. You have grasped the essential difference. Libya was a domino that might, with a relatively small nudge, topple. Syria is an impossible target, heavily militarised and clamped down across the entire subjugated police-state that it is. Horrible things go on there, but 'we' are impotent to do much about it.

It's not always about oil. Sometimes military practicalities weigh in the balance...

[amateur51]

It does seem common sense not to take on an enemy you can't defeat relatively cheaply, oil or no oil.

Ah the new realpolitik. £1.75bn and counting is 'relatively cheaply'

Or are we talking NATO military casualties?

[amateur51]

I like your thinkin', FF old bean. You have grasped the essential difference. Libya was a domino that might, with a relatively small nudge, topple. Syria is an impossible target, heavily militarised and clamped down across the entire subjugated police-state that it is. Horrible things go on there, but 'we' are impotent to do much about it.

It's not always about oil. Sometimes military practicalities weigh in the balance...

I don't recall PM Cameron nor Pres. Sarkozy making these points in the run up to NATO action though ... tho' I guess Sarkozy is up for re-election

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/nicolas-sarkozy/8789592/Sarkozy-calls-crisis-meeting-as-Senate-vote-puts-his-job-in-danger.html

[french frank]

Ah the new realpolitik. £1.75bn and counting is 'relatively cheaply'

Yes. Relative to taking on Syria

[amateur51]

Yes. Relative to taking on Syria

You mean they've already done the calculations AND you've seen them?

Do the tentacles of FoR3 know no boundaries??

[vinteuil]

I don't recall PM Cameron nor Pres. Sarkozy making these points in the run up to NATO action though ... tho' I guess Sarkozy is up for re-election

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...in-danger.html

am - your link is a salutary reminder that The Telegraph - putting to one side its declared political allegiances - sometimes gives the best overseas news and opinion coverage. Sadly, often better that The Times, The Guardian, or The Independent...

[amateur51]

am - your link is a salutary reminder that The Telegraph - putting to one side its declared political allegiances - sometimes gives the best overseas news and opinion coverage. Sadly, often better that The Times, The Guardian, or The Independent...

Setting those aside, vints I agree it's a cracking paper, best obits by far, just won't fit inside the budgie's cage

At least you know where The Telegraph is coming from ...