Badgers in the garden

[ahinton]

Yes, and the RSPCA are dead against it too.

Sadly, they have quite a few of their own problems with which to deal these days, as a recent R4 Face the Facts edition demonstrated...

An NFU leader on R4 Any Questions last week, said "Badgers have killed 3000 cattle..." Well, I think you can see what's wrong with that statement... (They rip their throats out you know.) Or you have someone like the Spectator's Melissa Kite setting up the tired old "ignorant townie vs. real country people" opposition, saying, "Badgers aren't cuddly!" No, and they're not murderers either. Just like those notorious "verminous killers" the foxes, They are wild animals who live near or alongside us and whose natural interests often clash with our overpopulated, wasteful, often greedy, commercial and social ones.

Farmers represent their own capitalist interests and have to do so otherwise they'd go out of business, but whereas foxes are indeed a pest to farms in tems of what they actually kill, badgers are perceived by most, even in the farming industry, to be one purely on the grounds of their input into the TB problem.

Perhaps the worst thing about the cull going ahead in this way is the pressure upon the Coalition and the NFU to insist - to make QUITE sure they "prove" - that it has been successful. The consequences could be appalling for farmers, cattle and badgers.

I have no idea how successful it might be, or how easy it might be to prove its success or otherwise; I don't even know for sure how much of a risk they pose in terms of TB but, if they do pose a risk at all, it is surely this one alone.

As one who has thrilled this year to the regular sight of Buzzards calling and soaring here in North Liverpool, (I used to have to go halfway up a Welsh mountain to see them, or Kites) I feel scandalized by the killing of Buzzards and Lesser Black-backed Gulls up on the Trough of Bowland, purely to protect the profits of overpopulated grouse-shoots. Most of the game ends up in landfill, shot by various businesspeople who enjoy playing lord and lady of the manor for a few days. Now their numbers are recovering well, left to themselves neither buzzards nor gulls would take any more grouse or eggs than they need. Some landowners also burn the heather, because grouse tend to breed better in younger growth. But they destroy complex ecosystems by so doing.

I don't understand this. I have spoken to quite a few people who are involved in the grouse shooting industry over the years who do not subscribe to the view that killing buzzards, kites and the like is necessary for the successful pursuit of their business; indeed, some even say that it can actually be detrimental to it! The discarding of corpses from shoots into landfill sites is not only deeply immoral but entirely unnecessary; some shoots don't allow this and instead ensure as far as possible that the kills end up in local butcheries or given to local people, as should be the case. Grouse, pheasant, &c., shooting must be for the benefit of those who will eat them and there are even some of high Tory persuasion who very much favour the use of kills by those who might not otherwise be able to afford decent nourishing meat. Around here in western Herefordistan one often hears the sound of the gun that's not in any way a part of organised shoots for tawffs (or even depressed farmers committing suicide); occasionally, I get offered nice things from these, which are most welcome and there's not a whiff of snobbery about it all, let alone any of the disgusting "lord and lady of the manor" stuff which of course does indeed happen but not always, thank goodness!

[Resurrection Man]

Well said, AH. But then again, when did commonsense ever get in the way of prejudice and emotive prose ....''pheasants into landfill".

A bit sad though that what started out as an interesting thread has now been hijacked by the armchair brigade.

[greenilex]

Are all farmers necessarily capitalists?

I've met veg growers who seemed the opposite.

Not all farmers own land, even. Sometimes the land owns them.

[Resurrection Man]

duplicate post

[Richard Tarleton]

armchair brigade.

RM I do hope you're not referring to me here. I have been professionally involved with nature conservation and countryside management for most of my working life.

I have referred forum members to the Bourne report, and the Krebs study. I suggest you read the report on the link I posted before venturing any more posts.

Talking about birds of prey, for the first year this year no hen harriers have nested successfully in England. The species is being driven to extinction as a UK breeding species by UK grouse moor owners.

[ahinton]

Well said, AH. But then again, when did commonsense ever get in the way of prejudice and emotive prose ....''pheasants into landfill".

Since when was that phrase merely "prejudiced" and "emotive"? This is precisely what happens after some shoots (and not just to pheasant either); I happen to have witnessed this for myself on one occasion, which is just as well because I'd not have believed it otherwise. "Complex ecosystems" is another phrase used by Jayne which is even less so; it's something for which the huntin' shootin' 'n' fishin' set all too often have blatant disregard and I am of the view that this may in part be due to the "sporting" element that has crept in generations ago despite it having no place in environmental preservation, conservation and development - since when, for exmple, was farming any kind of "sport"?

A bit sad though that what started out as an interesting thread has now been hijacked by the armchair brigade.

The latest vision of a brigadier in an armchair prompts me to note that you really do have quite an obsession with armchairs; do you sell them professionally, or something?

[ahinton]

Are all farmers necessarily capitalists?

All those who run their own agri-businesses, regardless of scale, have to be so otherwise they'd go out of business.

I've met veg growers who seemed the opposite.

Are they doing it for their own business or for someone else's? You can't do any kind of farming without expenditure and if you don't make a profit you have to stop because you go under, unless someone happens to be bankrolling you to continue.

Not all farmers own land, even. Sometimes the land owns them.

That's very true, of course, but you don't necessarily have to be a landowner to be a capitalist running a business.

[umslopogaas]

I am puzzled by this badger cull. It is only a partial cull, and over a limited area. In so far as badgers do transmit TB to cattle, it will have some effect in reducing TB levels, but according to the figures I've seen, not by very much. So why are DEFRA going to all this trouble, and causing so much fuss, to achieve not very much?

I also have no idea why we dont already have an effective vaccine. After all, its decades since vaccination was introduced for TB in humans, what is so different about developing one for cattle? Does anyone know?

[Anna]

I also have no idea why we dont already have an effective vaccine. After all, its decades since vaccination was introduced for TB in humans, what is so different about developing one for cattle? Does anyone know?

Cattle can be vaccinated with the BCG vaccine but vaccination of cattle against TB is currently prohibited by EU legislation, mainly because vaccination of cattle can interfere with the tuberculin skin test, (the main diagnostic test for TB) Badgers can be vaccinated and The Welsh Assembly have decided on vaccination with trials initially in Pembrokeshire (Scotland is officially TB-free) TB is also transmitted cattle to cattle and cattle to badgers.

[umslopogaas]

Ah, thanks Anna. Sounds as if we need some research on a new test. I can see that vaccinating badgers is possible, but it would be much easier to vaccinate cattle! Also, you could be confident you'd found and vaccinated every cow, but you could never be sure you'd trapped and vaccinated every badger.

[Richard Tarleton]

It is only a partial cull, and over a limited area. In so far as badgers do transmit TB to cattle, it will have some effect in reducing TB levels, but according to the figures I've seen, not by very much.

Part of the problem raised by the cull, discussed at length in the 2007 Bourne Report, q.v. above, is the perturbation effect whereby badgers that are missed, move, other badgers move into setts vacated by shot badgers, etc. etc. So far from eliminating the problem it merely moves it about and in some cases can introduce it to farms where there was not previously TB.

Most shameful, the government is not examining the shot carcasses of badgers for signs of TB, thereby not discovering whether they are slaughtering perfectly healthy animals. This really exposes the whole disgraceful business for what it is, namely a sop to farmers by politicians.

Sorry to keep on about the Bourne Report but it is the critical document here. Farmers need to be looking at the ways livestock are housed, moved about the country, etc. etc.

To answer S_A's (rhetorical ) question in #44, no of course there are no badgers, tho' there is plenty of introduced wildlife in NZ ranging from chaffinches to foxes and red deer - the vectors for TB in cattle are possums, an introduced species with an entirely different ecology to badgers.

[Serial_Apologist]

To answer S_A's (rhetorical ) question in #44, no of course there are no badgers, tho' there is plenty of introduced wildlife in NZ ranging from chaffinches to foxes and red deer - the vectors for TB in cattle are possums, an introduced species with an entirely different ecology to badgers.

Oh thanks for that answer, Richard. A case then of

possum
potes
potest

if my memory of school Latin serves me correctly.

[jayne lee wilson]

Well said, AH. But then again, when did commonsense ever get in the way of prejudice and emotive prose ....''pheasants into landfill".

A bit sad though that what started out as an interesting thread has now been hijacked by the armchair brigade.

With what dreary predictably RM speaks, as Seamus Heaney said "open minds as open as a trap"...
this R-Man "hears what he wants to hear & disregards the rest", but for anyone whose mind is not mined, here it all is (if you follow enough links..)

raptorpolitics.org.uk/2011/11/10/buzzard-poisoned-and-attempted-shooting-of-a-peregrine-in-the-forest-of-bowland/

http://raptorpolitics.org.uk

http://theguardian.com/environment/2013/may/23/conservation-agency-approved-cull-endangered-birds

http://bowlandwildlife.org.uk/?m=201205

If any link doesn't work, google it (if you dare face the truth...)

It never occurs to those who call foxes vermin or badgers murderers that they are EXACTLY as anthropomorphic as the "bunny-huggers" they so love to disparage, just from the other side of their high&mighty fence.

[Resurrection Man]

With what dreary predictably RM speaks, as Seamus Heaney said "open minds as open as a trap"...
this R-Man "hears what he wants to hear & disregards the rest", but for anyone whose mind is not mined, here it all is (if you follow enough links..)

raptorpolitics.org.uk/2011/11/10/buzzard-poisoned-and-attempted-shooting-of-a-peregrine-in-the-forest-of-bowland/

http://raptorpolitics.org.uk

http://theguardian.com/environment/2013/may/23/conservation-agency-approved-cull-endangered-birds

http://bowlandwildlife.org.uk/?m=201205

If any link doesn't work, google it (if you dare face the truth...)

It never occurs to those who call foxes vermin or badgers murderers that they are EXACTLY as anthropomorphic as the "bunny-huggers" they so love to disparage, just from the other side of their high&mighty fence.

Such a touching lack of reality. I can also Google to my hearts content and pull up individual news clips. But then I don't go tarring everyone with the same brush.

I'd be interested to see the link that supports your 'pheasants to landfill' quote.

By the way, have you ever seen a chicken pen after a fox has been in for fun? Bit bloody.

[Anna]

as Seamus Heaney said "open minds as open as a trap"...

Or, as Frank Zappa said "A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open"

I am totally against the cull and agree with all Richard Tarleton has said (also, I would add, whilst working for Chartered Surveyors Auctioneers & Valuers in a rural practice having first hand knowledge of TB testing in association with DEFRA and vets, also, having lived through the horrors of the 2001 foot & mouth I can say with certainty the Government (at the time and indeed now) don't not have a clue about cattle movements - now tightened up - and how farming works.