The General Chat Room

[Serial_Apologist]

I wonder what she meant by that; "one can always tell" by examining the scores or by listening to performances of the music? - and how is it that "one can always tell"?

I've managed to dig out the cassette I made of that programme - perhaps in fairness to Ms Davies I should listen to what I am claiming her to have said during it (or was it another contributer?) lest she issue writs for misrepresentation or comes banging on my door!

[ahinton]

I've managed to dig out the cassette I made of that programme - perhaps in fairness to Ms Davies I should listen to what I am claiming her to have said during it (or was it another contributer?) lest she issue writs for misrepresentation or comes banging on my door!

Well, yes, it would indeed be a good idea, but somehow the prospect of Ms Davies (or whoever else it might have been) contemplating the issue of litigation against you for what you wrote in your earlier post seems somewhat less than a likely one! (after all, there aren't that many composers who could even afford the lawyers', barristers', Court and other fees to conduct it!)...

[Serial_Apologist]

I'm not so sure about that; for it to do so, one would presumably have to subscribe to the view that one fundamental purpose of and rationale for serialism - well, serial dodecaphony, at any rate - is indeed to dispense with the kinds of relationships that characterise tonal music, but this would surely be to undermine the work of serial composers who took a different - or at least wider - view of what was possible within the framework of serial dodecaphony, not least Berg, for example. One reason that prompts me to question this is that it is in any case obviously possible to undermine such relationships as one might expect to encounter in overtly tonal music without necessarily having recourse to serial dodecaphonic practice in order to achieve this.

As someone with a sense of aesthetic sympathy to the Schoenberg "school" I find myself in agreement here.

I should have added in response to Richard in my #490 that one reason for employing serial methods is that they offer one arguably legitimate means among quite a few in post-tonal musics for creating unified wholes, thus fulfilling what many might see as a condition universal in artistic endeavour.

Thinking further about this, it's probably instructive in some sense that most of the composers of that generation who followed a Schoenberg/Berg path of marrying serial methods with thematicism, those born roughly between the early 1920s and the mid-forties, have gone on to ditch tone rows, many of them reverting to a late romantic harmonic language of one sort or another. I was listening earlier to 'Die Gluchliche Hand'; it always amazes me to think that it was composed as early as it was - so much that was gained in that period in terms of creating brand new soundworlds that uncover previously hidden realms of feeling and imagination, parallel with early Abstraction in painting, and yet it was the post-war serialists associated with and influenced by Darmstadt who picked up on that, and the Maws, the Holloways, the Goehrs and the Bennetts who let it go! Sad!

[Richard Barrett]

I should have added in response to Richard in my #490 that one reason for employing serial methods is that they offer one arguably legitimate means among quite a few in post-tonal musics for creating unified wholes, thus fulfilling what many might see as a condition universal in artistic endeavour.

Absolutely. A frequent misunderstanding is that everything is relatable to the series (whatever that might be in any given case), whereas in fact the point (IMO) is that everything is relatable to everything else: a musical application of Mach's principle, if you like.

[ahinton]

Absolutely. A frequent misunderstanding is that everything is relatable to the series (whatever that might be in any given case), whereas in fact the point (IMO) is that everything is relatable to everything else: a musical application of Mach's principle, if you like.

Whilst that is of course true in principle, espousal of dodecaphonic or other serialist practices are not the only ways in which to seek to achieve this.

[Nick Armstrong]

Ah excellent !
Thanks for that, I'll pop in and pick one up .

( and get a free coffee with my " My Waitrose " card....)

and then pop round to Lidl for the ingredients.......

That particular avenue of pleasure has been closed off, it seems, ts.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rt-people.html

[antongould]

Who is calling you a Lidl Chav Rumpole ... ???

[Nick Armstrong]

Who is calling you a Lidl Chav Rumpole ... ???

That bloke over there looking for his teeth on the floor.....



(I confess to never having had a Waitrose freebie coffee)

[teamsaint]

Writing on the wall for the partnership, I suspect.

They must know they are in trouble when Quinoa is half the price and better quality at Asda........

[Beef Oven!]

Quinoa is half the price and better quality at Asda........

What is happening to our species? A man shouldn’t know things like that.

[ahinton]

What is happening to our species? A man shouldn’t know things like that.

But surely difficult not to do so for anyone who happens to visit both stores and checks this, surely? Or are you perhaps seeking to imply that those who visit Waitrose and those who visit Lidl might be from different species? In any case (as I might ask Sydney Grew were he to have written your post instead), should a woman know such things?

[Serial_Apologist]

But surely difficult not to do so for anyone who happens to visit both stores and checks this, surely? Or are you perhaps seeking to imply that those who visit Waitrose and those who visit Lidl might be from different species? In any case (as I might ask Sydney Grew were he to have written your post instead), should a woman know such things?

In speaking of "the wrong sort of people", the above-quoted Daily Wail article appears to imply that Waitrose considers chavs not entirely to be people. Or is this one for the Pedants board?

[BBMmk2]

More or less anything goes in this thread, SA!

[ahinton]

In speaking of "the wrong sort of people", the above-quoted Daily Wail article appears to imply that Waitrose considers chavs not entirely to be people. Or is this one for the Pedants board?

I submit that it's one for Waitrose...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

"the wrong sort of people"? Those who read the Daily Mail, f'rinstance?