Further reflections on the funeral

[Richard Barrett]

Little evidence of anything as yet given he was appointed last September.

Let me put it another way then. Do you think it conceivable that such a person would be appointed to chair ACE through a policy to value and promote the non-commercial side of British culture?

[Mr Pee]

Others might have pointed this out already, but I don't think MT was in the least ashamed of Mark's activities. She actively promoted construction & arms dealing companies he was involved in during official visits to the middle east, & gained contracts (under the auspices of the government) for them. A mother helping her son, or corruption? Then there was the famous 'lost in the desert' episode, when government, or state, resources were used to find him. It wasn't until the failed armed coup in Africa that his activities became too embarrassing & he was effectively banished.

I don't believe you have any proof of nepotism at work here; there aren't a large number of arms manufacturers in the UK- I'm sure even one is too many for you, but sadly in the real world, these companies exist and so does the need for their products. Would you have preferred Lady T to turn down the contract, along with all the employment it would bring, just because her son had some vague connection with the company?

And as for your remark about the Paris-Dakar rally incident, what would you rather? That Mark, his co-driver and their engineer should simply be left to die in the Sahara? This was by no means the first such rescue operation mounted in the history of that event, and there have been others since. And you should be aware that his mother made a contribution to the costs of the rescue out of her own pocket.

I am glad the funeral is now over; it has exposed a vindictive and cruel underbelly to the Left in this country which has done them no credit.

[ahinton]

Little evidence of anything as yet given he was appointed last September.

Richard Barrett asked how you would explain the appointment and of what it could be evidence - not what his incumbency is evidence of; in other words, on what grounds and with what hopes do you suppose that Bazalgette was appointed in the first place? Perhaps you might consider his question and answer it directly.

[ahinton]

I am glad the funeral is now over; it has exposed a vindictive and cruel underbelly to the Left in this country which has done them no credit.

Oh, the Left, the Left, always the Left! It's high time that it occurred to some people capable of pulling their heads out of the sand at least temporarily that the legacy of social divisiveness (perhaps above all other aspects of MT's legacy) is not only disparaged by the Left. I am not of the Left. I have never been of the Left. Whilst I do think that MT possessed fine leadership qualities and might well have had it within her to make bring about fundamental positive changes in Britain during more than a decade of office, many of the policies - especially the most callous and ill-thought-through ones - that she espoused wrought a great deal of damage, widened inequalities and encouraged competitiveness over co-operation (as Richard Barrett has pointed out more than once) to such an extent as to set individual against individual and exacerbate the have-nots' jealousies and resentments of the rich which, though present, were far less notable and noticeable during the 60s and 70s; a just and generous spirited summing-up of her time as prime minister might well therefore be a raft of wilfully lost opportunities. Finally, to accuse the Left of "vindictiveness and cruelty" in the context of MT might at least afford some wry amusement were the subject not of such gravity.

[Richard Barrett]

there aren'a a large number of arms manufacturers in the UK

Surely you jest. The UK is currently the seventh-largest arms exporter in the world, in 2012 exporting arms worth 863m US dollars (source: SIPRI). BAE Systems is since 2008 the largest developer of arms in the world.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

Let me put it another way then. Do you think it conceivable that such a person would be appointed to chair ACE through a policy to value and promote the non-commercial side of British culture?

My previous answer is quite sufficient. It may well be that his appointment was made in order to reform the working and administration of the Arts Council. We'll have to wait and see. And I don't see the Arts Council as the whole story of the UK arts scene - not by a country mile.

[amateur51]

Now that the funeral is over and Thatcher is dead and buried, please can her apologists just give it a rest.

[Tarantella]

I am glad the funeral is now over; it has exposed a vindictive and cruel underbelly to the Left in this country which has done them no credit.

And so say all of us!! Hooray!

Does anybody know exactly what music was played at the funeral. I didn't recognize much of it in terms of an actual name.

[ahinton]

How exactly is it out of kilter with our democratic process? The other side of that very "militaristic pomp" played a crucial part in ensuring that we still live in a society that allows you to make your protest.

Should this be read as indicative of a view that such freedom of expression as still exists in Britain today is - and could only ever be - possible as a direct consequence of the threat and/or exercise of military might? If so, that would appear to speak for itself.

That said, why have any of it at a funeral? I have to admit that when I heard about the use of a gun-carriage, my first thoughts were "why? - she's already dead, for heaven's sake".

[ahinton]

My previous answer is quite sufficient. It may well be that his appointment was made in order to reform the working and administration of the Arts Council. We'll have to wait and see. And I don't see the Arts Council as the whole story of the UK arts scene - not by a country mile.

Your previous answer may have been sufficient for you, but not so as a direct answer to the question; however, you now clarify that your actual answer is "I don't know for sure". Fair enough. That said, no one has suggested that ACE is - or indeed even purports to be - "the whole story of the UK arts scene", so I don't know why you raise this; it is nevertheless an important part of that story, although it should surely be obvious that the practical manifestation of that importance has been gravely undermined as a consequence of its recent budget cut announcement.

[Richard Barrett]

It's really quite difficult to have a discussion with you, isn't it. A_I_C?

I don't see the Arts Council as the whole story of the UK arts scene - not by a country mile.

Nor did anyone claim it was, taking its history instead as indicative of changes in governments' attitudes towards culture, since it's the principal conduit of government policy in that area. So when one sees that (a) ACE funding is presently being cut to an extent even Thatcher didn't attempt, (b) simultaneously, as I previously mentioned, the "Arts & Business" organisation, set up to promote business sponsorship, is also being heavily cut, and (c) this Bazalgette character (described by leftwing rag the London Evening Standard as having "done more to debase television over the past decade than anyone else") is appointed to chair ACE, I would say one is justified in using the term institutional (and indeed ideological) philistinism. Or do you think that's unfair?

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[Mr Pee]

Now that the funeral is over and Thatcher is dead and buried, please can her apologists just give it a rest.

And likewise for her vindictive and disrespectful left- wing critics. Never the twain shall meet, so there is now no point in churning out the same old arguments day after day.



It's over, she's gone, let's all just move on.

[Mr Pee]

Should this be read as indicative of a view that such freedom of expression as still exists in Britain today is - and could only ever be - possible as a direct consequence of the threat and/or exercise of military might? If so, that would appear to speak for itself.

That said, why have any of it at a funeral? I have to admit that when I heard about the use of a gun-carriage, my first thoughts were "why? - she's already dead, for heaven's sake".

Oh dear me. I was going to leave this thread alone after my last post but I really can't let this go.

Margaret Thatcher's coffin rested at St.Clement Danes church en route to St.Pauls. That church is the central church of the Royal Air Force. Without the Royal Air Force defeating the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain, it is highly probable that this country would have been occupied by the Nazis. Therefore, yes, that freedom of expression is only possible as a direct consequence of military action.

And obviously you know that the gun carriage is purely part of the traditional ceremonial.

[aeolium]

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

My thought on this is that I would change the description "institutional philistinism" to "governmental philistinism" - which I think has been true of various governments' attitudes towards the arts at least since the 1970s. I don't think, for instance, the South Bank Centre - as an institution - is institutionally philistine. The fact that it has mounted a year-long festival about C20 music which includes many concerts and related events would certainly testify to the contrary. And there are a number of other institutions, like the National Theatre, the BFI, the Birmingham Opera Company for instance which do excellent work, not to mention the many festival institutions - all of these perform heroically in the face of very difficult funding provision and the recession.

I do think funding is overly centred on London to the detriment of other areas, and plenty of regional arts companies - like Exeter's Northcott theatre - have in some cases had their entire arts council funding cut. But that again is not a failure of the institution, it is primarily a failure of government (and arts council priorities).

[ahinton]

It's really quite difficult to have a discussion with you, isn't it. A_I_C?



Nor did anyone claim it was, taking its history instead as indicative of changes in governments' attitudes towards culture, since it's the principal conduit of government policy in that area. So when one sees that (a) ACE funding is presently being cut to an extent even Thatcher didn't attempt, (b) simultaneously, as I previously mentioned, the "Arts & Business" organisation, set up to promote business sponsorship, is also being heavily cut, and (c) this Bazalgette character (described by leftwing rag the London Evening Standard as having "done more to debase television over the past decade than anyone else") is appointed to chair ACE, I would say one is justified in using the term institutional (and indeed ideological) philistinism. Or do you think that's unfair?

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

The only thoughts that I have are that the conclusion at which you arrive from (a), (b) & (c) is one that is not amenable to challenge; how else besides institutional philistinism one could (politely!) describe these simultaneous cuts to ACE and A&B alongside the appointment as chairman to the former someone with Baz's record (and it would be hard to argue with the London Evening Standard's assessment of that record) I have no idea.