Old lady dies (see other post)

[MrGongGong]

I'm not going to be drawn into a discussion of whether it's "classical" or not, but the first two notes of Bernstein's "Maria" are an augmented fourth or tritone.

More interesting IMV is that the melody from "Black Sabbath" by the band of the same name is also composed of a note, it's octave and the tritone
so much for the "musical ignorance" of Heavy Metal then

[EdgeleyRob]

In your wardrobe?

Any fifths in this ?

[teamsaint]

More interesting IMV is that the melody from "Black Sabbath" by the band of the same name is also composed of a note, it's octave and the tritone
so much for the "musical ignorance" of Heavy Metal then

well that is one to check out. Cheers gongers.
(lost my copy of that album)

[Bryn]

Re. #359, please, when it comes to music I am no expert. I am an enthusiast, certainly, but my formal musical studies were terminated by a change of schools associated with a family relocation in my youth. Sure I later learned from other far more tutored members of the Scratch Orchestra (including some private drumming tuition from the great Eddie Prevost) and managed to include a 'half-module' in electronic music as part of my undergraduate studies but my response to music remains largely visceral rather than technical. In terms of music theory I am basically an autodidact, and not a particularly diligent one.

[Mr Pee]

I feel I must correct this. Mr Pee: the terms 'major' and 'minor' are used only with the intervals of a 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th (or higher e.g. a maj. 9th which is an octave plus a major 2nd)

The interval of a 5th as found at the opening of Also Sprach Zarathustra is a perfect 5th (it doesn't matter whether it is rising or falling) The interval of a tritone (eg F to B ) is called either an augmented 4th or a diminished 5th according to how the harmony is working .The first interval at the beginning of Tristan und Isolde is a minor 6th surely ( A - F) ?

Of course you are right on all counts. My apologies. Of course both Tristan and Love Story are Minor Sixths. I am easily confused these days......

[Tony Halstead]

I'm not going to be drawn into a discussion of whether it's "classical" or not, but the first two notes of Bernstein's "Maria" are an augmented fourth or tritone.

Of course they are! But in terms of functional harmony () the 2nd note is actually an appogiatura leading to the 3rd note which is a 'perfect 5th' from the 1st note.

[Nick Armstrong]

Of course they are! But in terms of functional harmony () the 2nd note is actually an appogiatura leading to the 3rd note which is a 'perfect 5th' from the 1st note.

[Beef Oven]

Re. #359, please, when it comes to music I am no expert. I am an enthusiast, certainly, but my formal musical studies were terminated by a change of schools associated with a family relocation in my youth. Sure I later learned from other far more tutored members of the Scratch Orchestra (including some private drumming tuition from the great Eddie Prevost) and managed to include a 'half-module' in electronic music as part of my undergraduate studies but my response to music remains largely visceral rather than technical. In terms of music theory I am basically an autodidact, and not a particularly diligent one.

Perhaps I shouldn't have referred to individuals, but I think the point was an important one to make. Thanks for the clarification in your case.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I sometimes think that the purpose of some parts of music theory IS to confuse things! A six semitone interval is a six semitone interval, for instance, whatever it is called.

Aha! We're witnessing the birth of a Babbittean/Fortean set theorist here, folks!

[EdgeleyRob]

Of course they are! But in terms of functional harmony () the 2nd note is actually an appogiatura leading to the 3rd note which is a 'perfect 5th' from the 1st note.

Think I'll just stick to listening.

[Serial_Apologist]

Of course they are! But in terms of functional harmony () the 2nd note is actually an appogiatura leading to the 3rd note which is a 'perfect 5th' from the 1st note.

A rather long duration to be an apoggiatura, I would have thought, waldhorn - but you're probably right: I haven't actually seen the score.

Like Bryn I am an autodidact in music theoretical terms. I've never quite grasped chord inversions, though I do understand the term to refer to the way a chord is "voiced": for instance the C, E and G of a C major tonic triad can be distributed across three distinct octaves, and it depends in which octave the notes other than the C are placed that determines whether it is a first, second, third etc chord inversion. It's confusing because - if I've got this right - an interval - as opposed to a chord inversion, consists simply in looking at any particular interval "upside down". So that a major second becomes a minor seventh, a fourth a fifth, and so on. Very useful to serial composers in varying the pitch range while staying true to the series. The previously mentioned tritone, or augmented fourth, is known as "the devil's interval" because whichever way up it is, it cannot be inverted: it is always an augmented fourth.

The other thing I never understand is why some composers use double sharps and flats in their notation. Why can't they be decent human beings and just notate the pitch a major second up or down: it would make sight-reading so much easier!!!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

So does twinkle twinkle little star start with a major(?) rising fifth.
See what I mean,who needs music theory text books.
All we need to know is here,for which I am seriously thankful.

Nearly, Rob: it's an rising Perfect Fifth.


It might help scottycelt (and other Brucknerians) to know that the opening two notes of the horn solo at the start of the Fourth Symphony is a falling perfect fifth (and the distance between the second and third notes is another rising fifth). At the start of the next phrase, the Horn plays a falling minor sixth.

In the Sixth Symphony, the distance between the first two long notes in the 'celli right at the start is another falling fifth. The first three notes in the solo Trumpet at the start of the Third Symphony is the opening of Also Sprach Zarathustra played backwards (not that Anton was aware of this).

[Bryn]

... The other thing I never understand is why some composers use double sharps and flats in their notation. Why can't they be decent human beings and just notate the pitch a major second up or down: it would make sight-reading so much easier!!!

I think Morton Feldman has something to say about his use of such notation in one of the talks available to listen to over at the Other Minds site. I will have a look and post a link if I find it.

Hmm, not from that source, but here is a paragraph on the topic from Erik Ulman's notes to a recording of Feldman's Patterns in a Chromatic Field for Cello and Piano:

Realizing these “notational images” makes extreme demands on the performers’ skill and concentration, demands that Charles Curtis and Aleck Karis meet with impeccable precision, tact, and delicacy. But for the cello the complications of Feldman’s notation comprise not only rhythm but also consistently eccentric enharmonic spellings: its opening “chromatic field” is written not as, for example, A, A-flat, G, B-flat, but, awkwardly, as B-double-flat,A-flat, F-double-sharp, A-sharp, implying infinitesimal microtonal deviations and alienating sound from “how the music looks.” For Feldman, this difficult notation alters “the focus of the pitch,” and as such prevents a “hardening of the categories”: “Which gets us, believe it or not, to why I use the [microtonal] spelling.... When you’re working with a minor second as long as I’ve been, it’s very wide. I hear a minor second like a minor third almost.... It depends on how quickly or slowly that note is comng to you, like McEnroe. I’m sure that he sees that ball coming in slow motion. And that’s the way I hear that pitch. It’s coming to me very slowly, and there’s a lot of stuff in there.” When, later in the work, Feldman follows a G-double-sharp in the cello with a B-double-flat, he brings the latent microtonal friction into the foreground, illuminating the pitch world’s underlying instability while also attaining a strange poignancy.

[Beef Oven]

Does this contain a rising 5th, or a rissole or perhaps a faggot?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

A rather long duration to be an apoggiatura, I would have thought, waldhorn - but you're probably right: I haven't actually seen the score.

An apoggiatura (unlike an acciacatura, which is a Grace Note, or Crushed Note in its Sunday best and should all be played/sung as fast as possible) can be as long as it likes. Up 'til about the late 19th Century, the convention was for it to be half as long as the rhythmic value of the note that followed it; by the time of Mahler, it could go on forever!

Like Bryn I am an autodidact in music theoretical terms. I've never quite grasped chord inversions, though I do understand the term to refer to the way a chord is "voiced": for instance the C, E and G of a C major tonic triad can be distributed across three distinct octaves, and it depends in which octave the notes other than the C are placed that determines whether it is a first, second, third etc chord inversion.

This is tricky without manuscript paper, but the easiest way of dealing with this is to hear a triad of C major. If the very lowest note that you hear is a C (any C, in any octave, so long as no other note is lower) then it's in Root Position. If it's a triad of C major with the lowest note E (any E, no matter what the octave, so long as no other note is lower) then it's Cmajor in First Inversion. If it's a C major triad with G the lowest note (any G ... etc etc) then it's C major in Second inversion.

Third Inversions can only occur in Seventh chords (say G7 = GBDF: if it's a G7 chord with F as the lowest note then it's G7 in Third Inversion.

It's confusing because - if I've got this right - an interval - as opposed to a chord inversion consists simply in looking at any particular interval "upside down". So that a majopr second becomes a minor seventh, a fourth a fifth, and so on. The previously mentioned tritone, or augmented fourth, is klnown as "the devil's interval" because whichever way up it is, it cannot be inverted: it is always an augmented fourth.

Yes, this is all correct. Chords are regarded as "Vertical" entities, Intervals as "Horizontal".

At least; this is how I've understood it (with some "fine tuning") for the past forty years: if anyone knows any differently, please break the news to me gently!

The other thing I never understand is why some composers use double sharps and flats in their notation. Why can't they be decent human beings and just notate the pitch a major second up or down: it would make sight-reading so much easier!!!

Ah! But it would be Tonally wrong: in G# major/minor, the leading note is F double-sharp, not G natural (just as in G major, the Leading note is F#, not Gb). Good players of "proper" instruments and singers instinctively make a different pitch - it's only on Keyboard instruments that F# and Gb (or F double sharp and G natural) are "the same"!