Old lady dies (see other post)

[teamsaint]

Banal personal observation:...I note while you all were having your discussion ref 5ths late last night....I was bringing it all down at least a quarter tone by watching football....

Something Mozart was apparently interested in.

(Quarter tones, not MOTD)

[Flosshilde]

without going into esoteric land completely
the "Score" doesn't produce what you hear
that's done by musicians or loudspeakers

Off to Pedant's Corner with you!


(sounds rather like the Naughty Step)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I would only know a piece was in this key if it said so on the tin,do you folks know instantly what key a piece is in even if it's new to you?

Aurally, no; I don't have "Perfect Pitch" of any sort - and I certainly wouldn't be able to repeat Previn's trick when, early in his time with the LSO, the oboist gave the A to tune up the orchestra at the start of a rehearsal, but mischievously played an Ab instead. Just before giving the downbeat to the opening of the Eroica (which is in Eb major), Previn said, "OK, let's start: but let's do it in E!"

I can identify the key of a piece of printed Music from the key signature (where such is applicable).

*****

I assume E Major just has the same key signature but starts on a different note,is it that simple?
I'm here most of the day btw

Please help me out Ferney!

Basically, you've got it right - every key signature is shared by two different keys: one in the major, the other in the minor. The two that share are called "relatives" - E major is the Relative Major of C# minor/ C# minor is the Relative minor of E major.

All major scales (doh re mi fah sol la ti doh) share exactly the same pattern of intervals: T T s T T T s ("T" = whole tone. "s" = semitone). The scale of C major goes C - D (T) - E (T) - F (s) - G (T) - A (T) - B (T) - C (s) . Play this on a Piano (or Stylophone) and you notice that none of the black keys need to be used. (To find middle C on a Piano, just look above the keyhole! - The black keys are arranged in patterns of two - space - three - space: C is the white key immediately to the Left of the first of the two black keys.)

If you start on E (next but one white key up from C - the key before the space before the three black keys) and just play the white keys up to the next E, you won't get E major (you'll get a Phrygian mode - but that's another story!!). To get E major, you have to follow the T T s T T T s pattern found in the C major scale. THis results in E - F# (T) - G# (T) - A (s) - B (T) - C# (T) - D# (T) - E (s). Now, you can write a piece in E major with "no" key signature, but that means you'd have to put a # in front of every F, G, C & D that you wrote. Much quicker to put the four sharps at the start of every line of Music.

Minor scales are more complicated (to discuss, not to listen to!): there are melodic, harmonic and "natural" versions of the minor scale. But, if you play a scale starting on C# and use the same black keys that you used in E major (F#, G#, C# & D#) you get: C# - D# - E - F# - G# - A - B, which is the "natural" minor scale (it's also an Aeolian mode starting on C#: but that's part of the other story!) To make the more familiar minor scales used in Western Classical Music between about 1650 - 1950 (the Music that all this stuff was designed for!) you have sometimes to sharpen the A and B, and at other times keep them natural: no key signature can communicate this, so composers used the nearest thing they could get and put in the alterations as they arose.

[MrGongGong]

Off to Pedant's Corner with you!


(sounds rather like the Naughty Step)

I think its a special room in the Dahlhaus

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Lor' I wish there were Music writing possibilities.

C major: C - D is a whole tone (T) ; D - E is a whole tone (T); E - F is a semitone (s); F - G is a whole tone (T); G - A is a whole tone (T); A - B is a whole tone (T); B - C is a semitone (s).

E major: E - F# is a whole tone (T);F# - G# is a whole tone (T);G# - A is a semitone (s);A - B is a whole tone (T);B - C# is a whole tone (T);C# - D# is a whole tone (T);D# - E is a semitone (s).

[EdgeleyRob]

The box sets of the Harnoncourt Bach cantatas had the scores - When I looked at those I could follow what I was hearing in the score, but had no idea how the score produced what I was hearing.

Flosshilde,I have had a go at following some of those you tube scores,they are great.
Trouble is I only know where it's up to when the page turns over.
Alkan's music looks just as great written down as it sounds IMO.

[MrGongGong]

For those of us who have been using electronic instruments for a number of years
we also get used to thinking in terms of everything being in semitones etc
so if you are using a sampler then keys are meaningless BUT transposition by
semitones (or even Cents) is much easier but you have to hold it in your head that
+7 = a fifth etc or 700 cents ..... and so on


so eventually we get to Ornette and Iannis (and Harry Partch, Arnold Dreyblatt, Glen Branca etc etc etc ) where it all gets much more interesting

[aeolium]

Good stuff, ferney msgs 483 & 485.

Perhaps all the messages about this technical stuff could be removed and placed on a thread in the Reference Library rather than being buried in a thread called Old lady dies which was not about an old lady dying

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

For those of us who have been using electronic instruments for a number of years
we also get used to thinking in terms of everything being in semitones etc
so if you are using a sampler then keys are meaningless BUT transposition by
semitones (or even Cents) is much easier but you have to hold it in your head that
+7 = a fifth etc or 700 cents ..... and so on


so eventually we get to Ornette and Iannis (and Harry Partch, Arnold Dreyblatt, Glen Branca etc etc etc ) where it all gets much more interesting

This is an important point: the stuff I've been trying to demonstrate is useful mainly (?"only"?) for the written Music of the Western Classical Traditions from approximately the mid-17th to the mid-20th Centuries. Doesn't "improve" the listening experience, nor is it necessarily useful for Music outside those traditions: it's primarily a publishing convenience, to help the composer tell him/herself and other people the sort of sounds s/he imagined when composing the Music.

[Bryn]

For those of us who have been using electronic instruments for a number of years
we also get used to thinking in terms of everything being in semitones etc
so if you are using a sampler then keys are meaningless BUT transposition by
semitones (or even Cents) is much easier but you have to hold it in your head that
+7 = a fifth etc or 700 cents ..... and so on


so eventually we get to Ornette and Iannis (and Harry Partch, Arnold Dreyblatt, Glen Branca etc etc etc ) where it all gets much more interesting

And as for Warren Burt ...

[EdgeleyRob]

Good stuff, ferney msgs 483 & 485.

Perhaps all the messages about this technical stuff could be removed and placed on a thread in the Reference Library rather than being buried in a thread called Old lady dies which was not about an old lady dying

Great idea aeolium.
Many,many thanks as ever ferney.

[scottycelt]

Another devout Catholic, by the way (are you there, Scotty?).

I certainly am, Pab ... but I've now joined the Trappists.

[Bryn]

I certainly am, Pab ... but I've now joined the Trappists.

No discussion of religion, remember

[Nick Armstrong]

I've now joined the Trappists.

"Yes, er, well, Lord Whiteadder, er, a vow of silence... Now, that's quite an interesting thing... Tell me about it."

Lord Percy, Blackadder 2 - 'Beer'

[MrGongGong]

I certainly am, Pab ... but I've now joined the Trappists.

Mines a Wesatmalle Trippel