Class

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

... it certainly shows how naturally we take to the waters of social status hierarchies in Britain

and the BBC Class thingy is pretty bad as these things go ... that cartoon in Noggins #237 is nearer the mark ...

Zoe Williams in the Graun on how the Mail presents the Philpott case

"Michael Philpott is a perfect parable for our age: his story shows the pervasiveness of evil born of welfare dependency. The trial spoke volumes about the sheer nastiness of the individuals involved. But it also lifted the lid on the bleak and often grotesque world of the welfare benefit scroungers – of whom there are not dozens, not hundreds, but tens of thousands in our country."

It is vitriolic, illogical depersonalisation to ascribe the grotesqueness of one wild, unique crime to tens of thousands of people on benefits. When any section of society is demonised on irrational grounds we have to take that seriously, so I will complain to the Press Complaints Commission, and I hope you will too – even though, as Twitter helpfully pointed out, it's run by Paul Dacre, the editor in chief of the Daily Mail

[amateur51]

... it certainly shows how naturally we take to the waters of social status hierarchies in Britain

and the BBC Class thingy is pretty bad as these things go ... that cartoon in Noggins #237 is nearer the mark ...

Zoe Williams in the Graun on how the Mail presents the Philpott case

In the same newspaper, Ricky Tomlinson nails ten lies within the current 'debate' about welfarism

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/02/ten-lies-told-about-welfare

and highlights the Unite union's fightback campaign

http://ourwelfareworks.com/

[Beef Oven]

In the same newspaper, Ricky Tomlinson nails ten lies within the current 'debate' about welfarism

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/02/ten-lies-told-about-welfare

and highlights the Unite union's fightback campaign

http://ourwelfareworks.com/

Anybody can 'nail' their own pamphlet on the door

But, I must say, I have enormous respect for Ricky Tomlinson, a real person who lives by his words.

[mangerton]

I take it you don't live in Edinburgh?

Edinburghers aren't real Scots; they just think they are. I have lived there, and I know.

scottycelt said "Scots generally consider themselves to be classless". This is true, but another way of looking at it would be to say that Scots all consider themselves to be first-class. ("Here's tae us, wha's like us....etc")

[french frank]

... it certainly shows how naturally we take to the waters of social status hierarchies in Britain

and the BBC Class thingy is pretty bad as these things go ... that cartoon in Noggins #237 is nearer the mark ...

Zoe Williams in the Graun on how the Mail presents the Philpott case.

"Michael Philpott is a perfect parable for our age: his story shows the pervasiveness of evil born of welfare dependency. The trial spoke volumes about the sheer nastiness of the individuals involved. But it also lifted the lid on the bleak and often grotesque world of the welfare benefit scroungers – of whom there are not dozens, not hundreds, but tens of thousands in our country."

It is vitriolic, illogical depersonalisation to ascribe the grotesqueness of one wild, unique crime to tens of thousands of people on benefits. When any section of society is demonised on irrational grounds we have to take that seriously, so I will complain to the Press Complaints Commission, and I hope you will too – even though, as Twitter helpfully pointed out, it's run by Paul Dacre, the editor in chief of the Daily Mail

More: Derby fire deaths: Were benefits to blame? (See the text - I didn't look at the clip)

Crumbs (re The Mail). Even Ann Widdecombe said (BBC clip) that no conclusions could be drawn about the welfare system from this case.

[ahinton]

Zoe Williams in the Graun on how the Mail presents the Philpott case

It surprises me (although perhaps it shouldn't) that even the Daily Fail has the brass neck to publish such disgusting sentiments as these; much as I doubt that they will get any kind of come-uppance over it, still less that which they richly deserve, I still hope that the Press Complaints Commission will have something sensible to say and do about it.

[Anna]

More: Derby fire deaths: Were benefits to blame? (See the text - I didn't look at the clip)
Crumbs (re The Mail). Even Ann Widdecombe said (BBC clip) that no conclusions could be drawn about the welfare system from this case.

I think Widdecombe's right, he is a dangerous sociopath, obsessed with his mistress and their children, I don't think the benefit system had anything to do with his actions, some similar crimes (but not on that scale for numbers killed) are committed by very middle and upper class sociopaths. Osborne, of course, capitalizing on it, has called for an enquiry in order to justify benefit cuts.

[eighthobstruction]

For me this was the bit that stood out for me >>>Indeed, the introduction of universal credit, a single household payment with the same name whether you're working or not, will erode the very distinction that this scornful skiver/striver language relies on. Clearly, they hope that in the medium term, by the time universal credit is rolled out, all benefit claimants will be despised equally, the very fact of needing any support at all being proof that they're not trying hard enough.<<<....well spotted Zoe, good point....

....I expect Dacre had stinging Editorial too....did anyone see it....??

...The IDS to live on £53pw petition is now up to 420,000

[anotherbob]

It surprises me (although perhaps it shouldn't) that even the Daily Fail has the brass neck to publish such disgusting sentiments as these; much as I doubt that they will get any kind of come-uppance over it, still less that which they richly deserve, I still hope that the Press Complaints Commission will have something sensible to say and do about it.

Seems unlikely chaired as it is by the Mail's editor in chief Paul Dacre

[eighthobstruction]

He is not anymore other bob, Zoe Williams added a correction that he is now chair of the Editors' Code of Practice Committee....

[Richard Tarleton]

There is a (IMV) balanced editorial in today's Times (which I quite understand some of us will not be able to read for religious reasons) saying that there should be no assumed right to have a large family funded by the state as a lifestyle choice, as appears to have been the case here, and certainly not uniquely so.

Beveridge as I understand it envisaged the welfare state as a contribution-based insurance system and safety net, and (again, if I understand him correctly) Frank Field has been saying more recently that this principle should be resurrected. Indeed he was advocating reform of the welfare system in 1997, until silenced by Brown.

[eighthobstruction]

Yes RT, but it was James Purnell (now BBC exec) who championed some of those changes you speak of in 2006 and it was the New Labour first attempt/ poking toe in the water to test the temp', to see how such attempts to limit the number of claimants might be accepted by the general public....

[mercia]

I don't think the benefit system had anything to do with his actions

wasn't it central to the court case as motive for the fire ?
he stood to lose £1,000 per month when the girlfriend moved out with five of the children and the fire was going to be blamed on her.
all the benefits and tax credits for both women and all the children having been given to him

[ahinton]

wasn't it central to the court case as motive for the fire ?
he stood to lose £1,000 per month when the girlfriend moved out with five of the children and the fire was going to be blamed on her.
all the benefits and tax credits for both women and all the children having been given to him

That doesn't of itself mean that the benefit system per se was central to the thrust of the case.

[Anna]

wasn't it central to the court case as motive for the fire ?
he stood to lose £1,000 per month when the girlfriend moved out with five of the children and the fire was going to be blamed on her.
all the benefits and tax credits for both women and all the children having been given to him

No mercia, I don't think so. I was not the benefit system, it was Philpott the man. The Judge said:

"You could not stand the fact that she had crossed you. You were determined to make sure that she came back and you began to put together your plan."

The judge then detailed Philpott's history of violence against women, starting with his attempted murder of a partner who left him, whom he stabbed 13 times. On his release from prison Philpott continued to abuse, control and beat women.

Philpott beat his first wife, with whom he had three children, before leaving her in his 40s for a 16-year-old whom he controlled "through physical and sexual violence, threats and emotional abuse".

The judge added: "She, like the two women before her, speaks of the lifelong damage she has suffered as a result of her relationship with you."

As I said above, imo, a dangerous sociopath who had indeed benefitted from the welfare system but it did not make him into the man he was.