Class

[Beef Oven]

I fear this might well be impossible, owing to the capitalist mindset being fixed on short-term gain - (another reason why the rhythm of parliamentary democracy always has to be played to their tune) - simply because it's mutually competing decisionmaking centres of operation have to compete to survive. Which is why capitalism is a systemic problem.

It is this that produces the ruthless type calum vividly describes, whose values percolate down through the media and education system to endlessly reproduce the model of human nature Beef Oven hails as justificatory of the status quo.

If we can't trust our own nature (what nature has endowed us with), how are we enabled to trust our mistrust? seems central to this specifically Western religious-inherited view of human nature.

Capitalism doesn't focus on short-term gain. The long arc of capitalism is however made up of an inter-connected series of short-term episodes. Like the long-term cost curve of a firm is made up of a series of short-term cost-curves.

I don't 'hail' anything and I'm against the status quo.

I do indeed trust in our own nature, I just don't share your view of human nature.

You obviously take issue with capitalism and the way it works, so why don't you offer an alternative? Maybe in just a few sentences.

[Serial_Apologist]

Capitalism doesn't focus on short-term gain. The long arc of capitalism is however made up of an inter-connected series of short-term episodes. Like the long-term cost curve of a firm is made up of a series of short-term cost-curves.

I don't 'hail' anything and I'm against the status quo.

I do indeed trust in our own nature, I just don't share your view of human nature.

You obviously take issue with capitalism and the way it works, so why don't you offer an alternative? Maybe in just a few sentences.

I argue for socialism - but that isn't going to come about given the present relationship of forces, as already explained, and so, while urging support for those resisting the cuts, my vote will go to the Greens at the next General Election.

[Beef Oven]

I argue for socialism - but that isn't going to come about given the present relationship of forces, as already explained, and so, while urging support for those resisting the cuts, my vote will go to the Greens at the next General Election.

That makes a lot of sense.

[Richard Barrett]

Capitalism doesn't focus on short-term gain.

Large corporations certainly have an inbuilt bias towards short-termism because they're so dependent on delivering dividends for their shareholders, who can sell up and put their money somewhere else at a moment's notice; and this is of course very often at the expense of their workers and their customers. Not to mention the current situation where the poorest and most vulnerable members of society are being made by the government to pick up the bill for the reckless gambling indulged in by many of your supposedly responsible "high earners" in the financial sector. (That's class solidarity in a particularly clear form.)

[Beef Oven]

Large corporations certainly have an inbuilt bias towards short-termism because they're so dependent on delivering dividends for their shareholders, who can sell up and put their money somewhere else at a moment's notice; and this is of course very often at the expense of their workers and their customers. Not to mention the current situation where the poorest and most vulnerable members of society are being made by the government to pick up the bill for the reckless gambling indulged in by many of your supposedly responsible "high earners" in the financial sector. (That's class solidarity in a particularly clear form.)

I agree that there have been some incredibly irresponsible bankers, and I would not dream of defending them. Changes need to be made to investment banking, we know that.

[eighthobstruction]

Do you all believe that a fairly rapid move towards Sustainability and clearer view and study of what growth might entail, needs to be built into what ever model ensues (capitalist or socialist)....

[MrGongGong]

Do you all believe that a fairly rapid move towards Sustainability and clearer view and study of what growth might entail need to be built into what ever model ensues (capitalist or socialist)....

I remember years ago when I was off school ill and watching the Liberal Party (remember them ?) conference on TV and being struck with a motion that was something like
"Everlasting eonomic growth is neither achievable, desirable nor in the long term interests of society"..........

The assumption that somehow "growth" is always what we should "strive" (aaaaaaaaaargh) for needs challenging IMV
in some cases it's a good idea (like competition) BUT in others it's not what we should be trying to achieve
confusing success with expansion is a common mistake

[Bryn]

Capitalism is market driven. The market , as Georgescu-Roegen reminded us, comprises the living (along with their concern, as parents, for their immediate offspring and maybe a generation or two beyond). That, in human terms, is short term. It's not a capitalist choice. It's built into the system.

[Richard Barrett]

That, in human terms, is short term. It's not a capitalist choice. It's built into the system.

Yes. Whereas things like ensuring a sustainable environment are long-term, in a way that a capitalist system is unable to address.

Regarding growth (and returning to class), here's a crucial passage from David Harvey:

"Three percent compound growth (generally considered the minimum satisfactory growth rate for a healthy capitalist economy) is becoming less and less feasible to sustain without resort to all manner of fictions (such as those that have characterized asset markets and financial affairs over the last two decades). There are good reasons to believe that there is no alternative to a new global order of governance that will eventually have to manage the transition to a zero growth economy. If that is to be done in an equitable way, then there is no alternative to socialism or communism. (...) Can capitalism survive the present trauma? Yes. But at what cost? This question masks another. Can the capitalist class reproduce its power in the face of the raft of economic, social, political and geopolitical and environmental difficulties? Again, the answer is a resounding “yes.” But the mass of the people will have to surrender the fruits of their labour to those in power, to surrender many of their rights and their hard-won asset values (in everything from housing to pension rights), and to suffer environmental degradations galore to say nothing of serial reductions in their living standards which means starvation for many of those already struggling to survive at rock bottom. Class inequalities will increase (as we already see happening). All of that may require more than a little political repression, police violence and militarized state control to stifle unrest."

[eighthobstruction]

"Three percent compound growth (generally considered the minimum satisfactory growth rate for a healthy capitalist economy) is becoming less and less feasible to sustain without resort to all manner of fictions (such as those that have characterized asset markets and financial affairs over the last two decades). There are good reasons to believe that there is no alternative to a new global order of governance that will eventually have to manage the transition to a zero growth economy. If that is to be done in an equitable way, then there is no alternative to socialism or communism. (...) Can capitalism survive the present trauma? Yes. But at what cost? This question masks another. Can the capitalist class reproduce its power in the face of the raft of economic, social, political and geopolitical and environmental difficulties? Again, the answer is a resounding “yes.” But the mass of the people will have to surrender the fruits of their labour to those in power, to surrender many of their rights and their hard-won asset values (in everything from housing to pension rights), and to suffer environmental degradations galore to say nothing of serial reductions in their living standards which means starvation for many of those already struggling to survive at rock bottom. Class inequalities will increase (as we already see happening). All of that may require more than a little political repression, police violence and militarized state control to stifle unrest."

....what publication is that from please Richard....

[teamsaint]

Do you all believe that a fairly rapid move towards Sustainability and clearer view and study of what growth might entail, needs to be built into what ever model ensues (capitalist or socialist)....

Given economic condition in Europe and America, and bearing in mind the Japanese experience, we would do well to consider this carefully.
Not going to be popular among the "four major holidays a year and private school education are essentials" mob, though....

[Beef Oven]

Do you all believe that a fairly rapid move towards Sustainability and clearer view and study of what growth might entail, needs to be built into what ever model ensues (capitalist or socialist)....

Goes without saying, it's endemic.

[Serial_Apologist]

and bearing in mind the Japanese experience

The Japanese experience is telling... In the 60s and 70s I well remember how we were repeatedly urged to look to their hardworking deference, while Japanese firms making every effort to plan longterm resulted in the big players going to the wall, and a decade plus of slump.

[eighthobstruction]

Goes without saying, it's endemic.

'it's'....what is your meaning....??....

[Richard Barrett]

....what publication is that from please Richard....

Sorry, bad academic practice there. It's from a talk given at the World Social Forum in 2010, and you cen read it all here.

http://davidharvey.org/2009/12/organizing-for-the-anti-capitalist-transition/