Class

[eighthobstruction]

It must be very confusing for people in Sweden where Volvo's are so popular and ubiquidous .....i.e. ref' class

[Richard Barrett]

Yes and what about the irreconcilable aesthetic (and indeed perhaps class) differences between adherents of the Volvo and (like myself) of the Saab? And what's going to happen to the latter now that there aren't going to be any more Saabs?

[Julien Sorel]

I haven't got a car. Does that mean I don't exist?

[Padraig]

I haven't got a car. Does that mean I don't exist?

Not necessarily

BUT

It could mean that some classes look down on you.

[Richard Barrett]

I haven't got a car. Does that mean I don't exist?

No, but it almost certainly means you don't play the harp.

[Padraig]

Oh he probably could if he had a dirty red bandana;
BUT
is that stepping down a bit?

reply to RB, 132

[Julien Sorel]

I haven't got a car. Does that mean I don't exist?

Not necessarily

BUT

It could mean that some classes look down on you.

True .

No, but it almost certainly means you don't play the harp.

Almost certainly I don't .

Still, looking on the bright side, at least I exist.

[french frank]

Discussion on class here if anyone wants to continue. Unbelievably stupid insults here.

For the record, discussions are under way as to whose turn it is to get out their chequebook and pay for the next upgrade as we are again in danger of exceeding our bandwidth. I wonder if we should even bother, at £200+ a time and not much in it for FoR3.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Discussion on class here if anyone wants to continue. Unbelievably stupid insults here.

For the record, discussions are under way as to whose turn it is to get out their chequebook and pay for the next upgrade as we are again in danger of exceeding our bandwidth. I wonder if we should even bother, at £200+ a time and not much in it for FoR3.

should these thoughts not be a thread in the admin bit ff ....

[Okay - copied to new thread 'Bandwidth' on Announcements - ff]

[BBMmk2]

Not necessarily

BUT

It could mean that some classes look down on you.

usually the neveau riche?

[Nick Armstrong]

usually the neveau riche?

Done alright for himself has he, the old nephew? Good lad!

[Beef Oven]

I believe that status, economic wherewithal, education, social mobility etc are Red Herrings and do not form the identity of one's 'class'. The true Marxist view about one's relationship to the means of production is a useful starting point, but does not tell the whole story. Althusser's augmentation of the base-superstructure relationship gets us closer, but it is not until Poulantzas' theory of the state that we get to, what in my opinion, is the essence and meaning of 'class'. That is an understanding of one's postion within the power 'nexus' (I know poulantzas wouldn't have used that term, but it will do here); and of course not just one's position, but the position of all those people who are alike and form the 'group' or 'class'.

So for me, thinking entirely within Poulantzas' framework, it's no easy task to assign 'class' and as for social mobilty, that will be even harder to discern. We need to think about where we are in the 'alliance' between those that have the backing of the power of the state behind them and the 'oppressed' or have nots. In Poulantzas' scheme of things, this is how a group achieves cultural hegemony (ok that's Gramsci, butI was educated by third generation Marxists!).

Blair achieved that 'alliance', albeit for a moment and to watch Cameron flailing about trying to do the same thing is wonderful! So where does it leave us on here? Well, we are all probably in the same class in the sense that despite our good educations and economic comfort (to greater or lesser degrees), we are in that class of people for whom the state does not work in their interest.

In terms of power, class has shifted so much, even since the 70s (clearly where my analysis is stuck!) that we can't tell who is who, merely from their status, money or education.

[teamsaint]

But we do know the origins of the current cabinet, for instance and we know that they do the bidding of the banker class .

Let's imagine for a moment that dave, gideon and boris were born on a council estate in Barnsley.........I wonder where they would be.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Let's imagine for a moment that dave, gideon and boris were born on a council estate in Barnsley.........I wonder where they would be.

Interesting point; but I wonder who they would be in such a conjecture.

[Richard Barrett]

it is not until Poulantzas' theory of the state that we get to, what in my opinion, is the essence and meaning of 'class'. That is an understanding of one's postion within the power 'nexus' (I know poulantzas wouldn't have used that term, but it will do here); and of course not just one's position, but the position of all those people who are alike and form the 'group' or 'class'.

But isn't that just a fuzzy, less well-defined version of Marx's definition? and what does "people who are alike" mean in this context? I have to confess that don't know much about Althusser and less about Poulantzas, except that Althusser's work seems to involve a retrenchment into theory, and Poulantzas' work is motivated (and I woud say his class analysis is undermined) by an attempt to reconcile Marxist analysis with liberal democracy, which I don't think can get very far. It could perhaps be said that the subsequent history of European social democracy tends to indicate that Poulantzas' "alliance" is an illusion: you say that Blair achieved such an alliance, but, as we all know, during the Blair years inequality (class inequality) increased, as it continues to do.